objective vs. subjective rabbit hole


There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

128x128snilf

I dont contest

" that our ability to test electrical signals is sufficient to indicate whether a difference will cause an audibly detected change."

This is trivial... I contest the belief that electrical signals technology is all there is to know about human hearing and ordinary human experience...

You dont seem to catch this subtle difference, so eager to accuse everyone to be deluded by his perception... Perception so deceiving it is for each of us ask to be trained, and anyway hearing cannot be even understood till this day....Why then disregarding any subjective impressions ?

Do you think that the fact that two electrically identical amplifier measured the same must sound the same is the ultime audio fact? It is trivial...

But what is not trivial is the way each one of us will interpret these same electrical signals in different psycho-acoustic conditions, acoustic circonstances and environment....

Objective and subjective attitude is a two way road...And this circulating correlation is the basis of psycho acoustic, not electrical theory by itself...

Zealot are not better than fetichist....

 

My two ears dont live in a blueprint electronical design but in my room... There is Two kind of CORRELATED science here....We cannot erase  one science for the other... We must learn how to hear, not subordinate our hearing to specs sheets...

 

 

 

@mahgister , What you care for means zip. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about us that is essential other than nature using biologic means to create the machines. It is a natural evolutionary step. We are pitifully inferior organisms. Whatever feeling we have will be transferred to machines with the ability to remember every syllable they ever heard. In the end humans will not have the ability to counter it. Fighting nature is a losing battle all we can do is destroy it. 

What can i say?

What you care for means zip

Nothing...

But your vision is so simplistic about organism and their meaning i cannot say anything to you...

You are a doctor, do your understand the meaning of mammal morphology? if you understand that, how can you think that all biological form are accident waiting to be integrated by a machine?

I bet you know NOTHING about the meaning of morphology , save to be an insignificant appearance...

Morphology is like acoustic, you learn it with your body and seeing intention not with the electrical equalizer manual or with memorized organic chemistry formulas...

An A. I. can replace you as a doctor, i bet you dont even know why you are not replaceable by a machine. ? Some people are so deluded...They dont know themselves and why they exist...

We are here on Earth to grow, not to be integrated in a machine...

Try Dostoievsky : very short novel, an absolute masterpiece, you will learn something...

"The dream of a ridicule man"

 

Your attitude illustrate the superficial thinking in America in particular where the transhumanist cult is very rooted.., Are you not ashamed to be associated to a cult which is not even over scientology level in intellectual term ?

Try Dostoievsky, you can claim that i am an idiot, i am perhaps one why not ?  but Doistoievsky is not an idiot...

Argue with a giant....

Or stay in your ridiculous hole...And instead of beginning a post by insulting  me think...

Whatever feeling we have will be transferred to machines with the ability to remember every syllable they ever heard. In the end humans will not have the ability to counter it. Fighting nature is a losing battle all we can do is destroy it.

 

@snilf

"To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?"

As I wrote in a paragraph of my profile description (and because I don’t like repeating myself with a reformulation):

"I don’t acknowledge sound perception as such being subjective, it’s rather about the aspects of what we hear that we prioritize."

Put a bunch of people in a concert hall witnessing a performance of some symphony, and let’s imagine - for the sake of the argument - that each one of them will get to experience the concert from the same seating position with the concert being appropriately repeated (to quench any "but they weren’t seated the same place"-arguments), and then from an outset of carte blanche have them "recreate" that concert by putting together a stereo system + acoustic locale with a reproduction that to their ears most closely emulates said concert. We’d likely have a wild variety of sonic outcomes from the different systems, even via differently sized listening rooms, and yet let’s remember they attended the same concert. And that’s just assuming, again, that their reference is similar and that they even care about the best ways to most closely reproduce or replicate it.

In reality and as an example some prefer sitting rather close to the orchestra, others further behind; this, at least as a singular aspect, will have a lot to say about the way someone orients themselves in putting together a stereo system, and also how far they may be placed from the speakers and in how big a room.
Then again I’d imagine many if not most aren’t really interested in recreating a live acoustic event in the first place (or any other type of musical event with the intention of using as a reference in assembling and implementing one’s own setup) - it’s more about something centered around itself, dictated also by possible spousal demands, economy, the time one wants to invest in this hobby, preconceived ideas, etc.

It should follow that the context of people and what forms their incentives in this endeavor varies a lot, and hence finding a point of reference here for one to follow  (looking for inspiration) can be tricky. Your premise above rests on the assumption that reading through forum posts is a with the goal of improving one’s own stereo setup, and as such I can imagine why you’d want some "hard intel" to go by and not fluffy pie-in-the-sky assertions. In the end though I gather anyone claiming to be from the "objective" camp will either need to ground their empirical findings (i.e.: measurements, data, theory) with listening evaluations (or so I hope) as a means to challenge these findings, or they don’t place much faith in the human hearing (a shame, I find) which is then effectively downplayed and replaced by a sound-by-number approach.

What is objective criteria, and how would we even agree on it? I guess it’s mostly a matter of getting your hands dirty and start persuading yourself.

Prof: interesting point about how a measurement (e.g., a 4 dB boost at 150 Hz) can express a "subjective impression" to another specialist who speaks the language of decibels and Herz. Of course, this presupposes that the subjective correlate ("warmer" male voice, or whatever) is causally connected to that measured phenomenon. I'm not saying it isn't, but I think a lot of folks on this site would want to say so, or would want at least to say that there are other, and important, subjective impressions that don't correspond to any known measurement. I'm not saying that isn't so, either; I really don't know. But your point about "objective" phenomena corresponding to subjective impressions in such a way that professionals who speak the technical language understand measurements in terms of their own subjective experience is revealing here. 

By the way, Descartes was not a skeptic, despite the game he plays with his "method of systematic doubt" in, for instance, the first Meditation. On the contrary, Descartes deploys doubt not in order to show that everything can be doubted, but rather, to discover what can't be doubted, what therefore must be true. This skeptical starting point is motivated by historical circumstance: the intellectual dominance of Aristotle in medieval science, and the contamination (for lack of a better word) of philosophy by theology in medieval Scholasticism. Were it not for Descartes' clearing away everything doubtful and building his system back up from a foundation of certainty using only logic (or, at least in principle, only logic), "modern" science would never have been possible.