OK, Here's One For You, Industry Quantification...

Yes our friend Pbb is the only one of us to realize how stupid all audiophiles are and that there really is no difference between and 70's vintage Panasonic reciever and a Wolcott, VPI, or Krell stereo system. Any claim made by a company or individual is purely for the purpose of robbing the ignorant.

What's worse is that none of the retailers and/or manufacturers have a conscience or soul. None of them will stand behind any of the claims they make. Which obviously does nothing to dissuade the audiophile community from continuing to buy their gear.

It is great that he is here to enlighten us with his amassed wisdom! I wonder if he has ever heard a derogatory claim that he did not love???

Pbb if you hate everything about this industry and hobby so much, why are you here?

Cocozhou, I imagine all the information you seek is available, but not in one place or in a format that would be useful to you. This industry is too splintered and insular. There certainly isn't any governing board who would have access to info or control over claims, but that doesn't mean your questions are a waste of time, just that answers will be hard to find.

Isn't there something like "The Academy for the Advancement of Hi-end Audio"?
I believe the movers-and-shakers formed this about 8-10 years ago.
They should be the ones to contact for this type of info.

Anarchy, if you could stop for one minute spewing and actually read what people post you could avoid being the source of lot more heat than light. Since when is audiophilia and, more to the point, products whose promoters cannot and will not deign provide any proper explanation or back-up as to their superiority, beyond the reach of criticism? Maybe you bite into the whole high-end subjective audio thing hook, line and sinker but there are still a few people who enjoy the hobby but still keep to a sense of proportion and common sense. Or is it maybe that audio to you is a religion? The original poster was a little dismayed that a dealer thinks that by dint of the fact the industry is small that the usual rules of commerce don't apply to it. In the sense that high-end audio lives by this notion that there are no objective measures to be applied, I can certainly understand this belief that a product does not have to provide provable performance that lives up to scrutiny if you invent this notion out of whole cloth that it is beyond reach of the physically provable and only lives in the world of aesthetics. If you are not the least bit shocked and appalled by, for example, cables selling for 8K, you are indeed a true believer. Now if you have any numbers to provide the original poster, go ahead, but somehow I feel you are not too big into quantifying anything.

Guys,

The conversation is interesting, if not somewhat entertaining. I must say, Pbb does make an interesting point in that the high-fidelity world at some level is subjective. Now mind you, all the engineers out there would read that line and be so under-impressed as to not even respond, but you can have mathematically perfect gear that, for some ghost-in-the-machine reason, just doesn't sound good. Mathematically, what makes mid-range liquid?

However, just because there is an element of subjectivity to the quality of gear, doesn't mean that merchants, distributors, and manufacturers should be unethical. I don't even give a darn if they don't provide the objective basis for their claims; I mean, it's just marketing, anyway. But if I am told a product is better than sliced bread by both the distributor and the retailer, then I purchase the thing sight unseen and do not like the sound, the distributor should not hang-up the phone on me when I call asking for his assistance in trying to make things right with the retailer, who tells me in essence I am stuck with the freaking thing and there is nothing he's going to do about it.

I suppose I am actually lucky, the fool retailer never sent me a receipt with the purchase. Additionally, his website makes ABSOLUTELY no mention of a specialized return policy. Well, my friends, after just a quick surf, I obtained both the Utah, where I live, and the California, where he sells, consumer protection laws. I’ll tell you this much, these protocols are quite unambiguous (let's not delve tangentially into that whole lawyer thing). I have disputed the charge with my Visa issuer and simply hope that, via this dispute, a message can be sent to these unethical sweeties that they have to change the way they do business.

It is disappointing for sure when some smooth talking unethical fool pawns crap. Shame on me, as well, for buying into it without an appropriate degree of research. To be frank, and to Pbb's point, I had the specifications in hand and they looked impressive, but the result was shit! However, with this said, I believe there are more truly ethical representatives out there who are truly interested in sharing their passion with like others.

Isn't that why we are all really out here, anyway?

Cocozhou and Pbb the point of my thread and ridicule of Pbb has to do with the foolishness of the measurement above all crowd.

The piece you bought measured well but sounded lousy. The seller has complete responsibility to back up whatever claims he made. If you are not satisfied based on the claims of the seller you should get a full refund. You trusted someone who knew you had no governing board to hold them responsible for their claims (right or wrong) and therefore took advantage of the buyer!

It is frustrating that so many claims are unsubstantiated, but so much of "good sound" is unmeasurable.

I read into the statements made by Pbb because I have read his drivel before and find it to be at best unhelpful. I would much rather have an amp that sounded good and measured bad than the recipricol. And yes Pbb I would gladly buy an $8000 IC or speaker cable if it made an $8000 improvement. Since I cannot afford it though it shouldn't be an issue. Just because a manufacturer cannot back up his claims with measurements does not mean the product is not good, or worth the asking price.

How would one measure a Monet or Michaelangelo to determine if it was of significant quality to warrant placement in a museum?

Cocozhou who is the seller who will not stand behind his promises. Maybe he needs to be encouraged by the audiophile community!