Well, i finally did it...i upgraded my Strads to Wilson X1 Grand Slamms...the one speaker i mentioned a couple of years ago and several posts back would be the only speaker i would upgrade to.
Stunning beyond all belief. It actually beat my Strads for sheer musicality/organic touch...something i was unprepared for. while at the same time, doing all the expected things...enormous dynamics, extreme bass, detail...
i suspect one of the reasons is effortlessness...this speaker more than any other i have heard shows no strain at any volume, dynamic or signal. once it shows no strain whatsoever, it allows any signal to come thru and pass right thru as if the speaker were not there...hence the music seems to flow straight thru.
just one person's experience! Enjoy everyone! |
Update:
- Changed my equipment rack. A 300 lb custom rack, 3" Birch ply sides
- African black sapele veneer in high piano gloss finish
- all on top of a 1.5" thick slab of slate...but decoupled
- the sound is tighter, more controlled, the soundstage much deeper.
- nice one!!!
- also added HRS damping feet under my Zanden DAC. |
PAD Contego is fully burned in...immediate improvements. Soundstage is much bigger, more powerful, yet with a detailing and presence that remain organic...more organic than the stock cable. But perhaps the best change is the lower noise floor...allows the sound coming forth to be music. |
I am now breaking in a PAD Ann Contego for the Gryphon Antileon and PAD Dom Ferox for the CJ Act 2. So far, the sound is clearly breaking in still...40 hours so far. Soundstage is bigger, images are more solid, more dynamics. I want to wait til it breaks 100 hrs before I weigh in completely. The PAD Dom Ferox for my zanden has been great. |
Emre,
I like very much Soulution products and think are among the very best.
But when combining different brands pre-power better test it first in your system. |
Downunder,
That is a great call...take the legendary 8's and upgrade them with CJ's latest Teflon capacitors. 275 watts of CJ power. Fantastic! Enjoy!
Lloyd |
Kops,
I have heard the same comments for MBL as well. apparently x-treme demo was very very successful.
any opinion on soulution products? I am planning to buy preamp 720.
emre |
I am currently running a pair of cj prem8a's with the factory teflon caps etc upgrades.
very very nice and is controlling the Strads beautifully.
highly recommended - long live tubes :-) |
Interesting. Our local dealer here in Hamburg ordered a pair of M5. He said it is was best loudspeakers he had ever heard, by far. I mainly heard good things about their performance in Munich and I am looking forward the hearing them. |
Emre,
The general opinion among many friends and dealers was that Magico in Munich was dissapointment; although it is curious no one mentioned it.
But Europeans audiophiles who've heard Magico M5 were dissapointed; I had friends ready to buy it but....on the other hand MBL for the first time (in Munich) played almost fantastic; given the room. |
Kops,
Unfortunately I could not go to Munich this year, hopefully next year.
did you listen to M5? what is your opinion.
Emre |
Thanks, George. That is really good to know. I have spent a lot of time with ARC...Ref 3, VT100, CD3, 5 and 7. I respect them all tremendously (except vt100 which I think is not up to the level of the other products ...nor is it expected to be) ..tremendous detail, a sound that is 'technically organic' if that makes any sense. Almost an oxymoron...but that is my impression. ARC comes at music from technical side (great technical accuracy/detail) and in most recent products made music extremely well. CJ comes at music from "sense/emotional" side and gets technicals mainly right but not always. Zanden is same and I love my Zanden DAC.
I generally prefer CJ sound but admit to finding (only) the latest ARC products extremely compelling competitors...with the balanced outputs of the Ref 3...that could be worth auditioning.
Lloyd |
Lloyd,
I have also used Arc Ref3 with Gryphon, the soundstage is huge and the match is very good indeed.
The only thing is that it is kinda different flavor from CJ....so test it.
If your dealer has both Stealth and PAD he should let you make A/B comparisons for 3-4 days at least and you'll find out.
Enjoy! |
Thanks George! That is very, very helpful. You have given me much to consider. I have always like the CJ Act 2. I also liked the Arc Ref 3 (which is balanced).
As for cables, I have spoken to my dealer who sells both Dreams and PAD. He walked me through the cable options and their pros and cons. After much discussions, he recommended I listen first to PAD Anniversary Contego. I will report back when I have rec'd the cables and burned them in a bit. Thanks again!
Lloyd |
Lloyd,
In reproducing high performance audio the part of the cables must be the lesser; in fact if absent is better.
We do not need sonic singature from cables but deliver undistorted signal (as much as possible).
Already you are having a "nice" sonic signature from your tube dac and tube preamp (I have tested the same pre as yours and is a good much with Antileon; but Antileon needs balanced preamp to deliver the most...I ended up either with dCS direct or with the latest Viva Audio Linea XP which is one of the most musical preamps ever heard; and still audiophile too), you're having musical and sweet speakers, so IMHO you don't need more "sauce" from the cables.
If your dealer can help you try the Stealth Dreams or Jorma Prime.
I think -with Dreams- you should see the power of Antileon and have bigger dynamics, more depth and broader soundstage, clarity as well and absolutely no harshness or edgy sound.
More neutral in the good way and faster (or equally fast with Nordost).
Previously used, Nordost valhallas, Stealth M5000 (sweeter sound), Siltech g5, g6 (Siltech is internal wiring in Gryphon), Virtual dynamics, Acoustic zen, Gryphon (entry level, same as Siltech) among others.
In general I believe that every cable (especially power cords) should be tested in your system first.
And only after that; decide.
The same applies with Speaker cables, I had Yter which is internal wiring of Strads and Annis, then Valhalla (lacked the depth of Yter and sweetnes also; but more tranparent and fast) and then came Stealth Dreams just better in every way and all the virtues of the previous.
But all is system dependant...so try before you make any change. All IMHO.
George. |
Kops,
Also...what in particular stands out in your mind about the sound of the Stealth Dreams PC with your Antileon...vs other Power cables...and what other cables did you audition? Thanks! |
Hi Kops, thanks for your advice!!
My system for your review/advice:
- Zanden DAC 5000Sig
- CJ Act 2 Pre
- Gryphon Antileon Amp
- Trans Ref IC Cabling
- PAD Ann Contego/Dom Ferox PC for DAC, Amp.
I have heard great things about Stealth Dream from the person whom I am buying PAD from.
Typically I look for organic midrange first...and then expect high powered bass, clarity, accuracy, etc next.
As a result, I went for Zanden, SF Strad, PAD PCs...however, I was "educated" after hearing Krell Evo One and Wilson Alexandrias...which really take an approach of accuracy, pitch control, etc first...and ended up creating one of the most musical systems I've heard in a long, long time.
So your point about Stealth (which I was told is more accurate...PAD more organic)....could well be a good thing for me.
Any further thoughts now that u know my system are very much appreciated.
Lloyd |
@Lloydelee21 what is your preamp?
I use with my antileon Stealth Dream power cords, tried many , but Dreams are among the best, so far...
@Emre did you really liked the Magico M5 in Munich???
A more affordable amplifier is Spectron Musician IIImk2, which "killed" carry V12 in Sonus Amati Anniversario & Montana XPs
But I too think that Soulution, Gryphon Colosseum (and tube pre), Tenor, Accuphase monos, Krell evos, are among best SS amps for Strads.
Lamm, Cary, CJ, no!
IMHO |
wow...there is a new SF flagship? now that IS interesting!!!
where do i learn more about it? |
Well that's a tough call. I have listen to YG but didnot liked it, somehow it has not captured me in same comment is valid for Focal Gran Utopia Em. Rockport might be an option but I am more inclined towards Magico M5, MBL X-treme or the new Sonus Faber's flagship(hopefully they will announce for next CES). |
If you get Cary V12 mono's get the V12R. Be prepared for very hot running amps. They are very powerful! I just traded my V12R stereo amp in on a new Cary 120S and the sound is better than the V12R and a Mac275 I sold last year. Bias is easy to set on the 120S (just a screwdriver, the meters are on the front) and it can handle loads from 2-16 ohms. It also puts out only about 1/5th the heat. You owe it to yourself to listen to one. Good luck. |
Hi Emre...great system!!! It would be fun to compare the sounds of our systems which share some components and 'themes' (Strads and Class A/very high quality SS) but have important differences as well (DCS/Valhalla vs Zanden/Transparent Ref). I noted your 'upgrade plan'...what are you thinking for speakers after Strad? I am contemplated (someday...) Alexandria 2, Rockport Arrakis/Hyperion. That said, there is something about the Strads at the moment where I am in no rush at all to upgrade. I was very impressed with YG but would be very careful to listen to system synergy for that one because it is so precise a speaker. Thanks for your thoughts!!! |
Hi,
I am a little bit late to comment on this thread. I have used for 3 years SF Strad & Gryphon Antileon Signature combo. I was very pleased with overall presentation, speed,and bass handling. But last year I have switched to MBL 9008A monos, they are utterly out of the league. Its a little bit on the dark side but neverthless dynamics, soundstage depth and harmonics are much much better than gryphon.
emre |
Thanks Tuboo. I will say on full Class A, the sound does not harden at full volumes. But it will on the lower biases when class B starts to get introduced...just slightly. Of course, once you get to a certain point, it is these very slight changes which are important in the never-ending search for 'true sound". I am doing some reading on the Less Loss. Thanks for the advice! |
thanks for sharing experiences.
800 watts is a lot, i used to own Atma MA2 which eat up 800 watts each channel..
but a reasonable household vacuumcleaner will eat up 1.5kW and sounds very bad too.
very clever thinking of Mr Rasmussen to implement the various Class A bias range.
i had just the same experience with the Pass XA30 amp here. at lower volumes it sounded sweet, but the moment i really crancked it, it turned to a nasty SS.
btw Pass has a great article on 'Class A' at his website. a must read.
this http://www.tubedepot.com/whisbipo.html is a must read too and a great way of showing how class A works.
keep em spinning :-) |
Hi Lloyd
IMO, just leave the Gryphon in full class A.
Sounds better that way and living in the UK, you always need a heater :-)
cheers |
Tuboo,
To try to give you a (slightly) more 'objective' sense of the biasing options, I would say that once the volume requirement surpasses the ability to stay in Class A, it sounds like very high quality solid state. There is a slight hardening of the treble...and because this is an extremely wide bandwidth amp, you really feel the treble harden when the volume breaches class A in the lower 2 biases. That said, it is still very good SS...much purer to my ear than a top level krell...but for a tube lover (who is expecting absolute purity of tone and a natural sound), I do feel this difference. As I said above, the technicals (decay, accuracy, space) will be nearly indistinguishable between biases...but I definitely "feel" the difference. Because I play at 38-50 on all music, I leave it on at full bias. According to Gryphon, the amp draws 800 watts from the wall...a lot but not horrible in the context of a home. Hope between the posts above and this one that you get some idea of the differences in biases. |
Hi Tuboo,
I have now spent 12+ hours listenin carefully. Answers to questions I have been asked:
1. Biasing. I tried low volume at 50%...on pre-amp that goes to 99 and where 71 will deliver volume to punch thru 2 floors of concrete cynderblock to disturb my neighbor, once I past 19, I found 75% was necessary to feel like I had full class A.
Once I got to 30...the level most audiophiles would 'start' their true auditioning, you really want 100%. The technical differences are almost non-existent in the sound...but 100% really does have a sense of naturalness that you 'feel/sense' rather than articulate just by hearing differences in decay or added detail, etc. But you definitely feel it intuitively.
The nice thing is that you can almost gauge how much class A you are using by the heat dissipation. When the amp starts to steam, the volume is low and the amp is burning off 'excess Class' via heat. But when volume is cranked up enuf, the unit starts steaming less and becomes like any tube amp. For me, I find 38 on my pre-amp is where I find the unit heat very normal and therefore enuf class is cranking music as opposed to dissapating heat.
2. I was shocked to find that the Strads were not getting nearly as much help now from the Velodyne DD-18 as I thought. Wow...the 2 10" cones on each speaker are really pumping now, and if I mute the Velodyne, it shocking how little I miss it. Maybe 5% extra for most House tracks! On the other hand, because I am a bass freak, I find that on certain tracks, that extra bass really adds a quality, visceral touch that is indescribably satisfying. Plus, on movies, it's killer.
That's all for now. Hope that helps. Thanks!! |
The SF Stradivari is for sure one of those speakers to hang on to for life. every speaker shall do less to an extent with many common amps, will work good with certain amps, and will perform superb with only couple of amps.. no matter what powerfigures or topology or brand alone.
even amongst the very best SS amps there will be one which will get the nod above the others with a typical speaker.. in any case i found the speaker & amp combination to be a very crucial one, and if you got it right you made a quantum leap.
if i read point 1 to 7 it is very likely you got a stunning combination found!
take your time to squeeze out the last say 10% in refinement and get into that magic zone.
i'm curious about the greenbias position and the full class A bias and how these two settings behave soundwise.
my tip: check out the LessLoss and Stealth powercables. |
Watch me!...hehehe...Trust me, when I pushed past 71 on the preamp and got my neighbor upstairs, I was trying to see if I could make it feel like a club in my apartment. It worked!...but a little extreme! There's loud and then there's deafening just to see if the system will crank. Guess it does...;) BTW, Jeff, that's a nice system you've got there...enjoy! |
Too bad you can't play it since you live in an apartment...... |
Ok...almost 3 hours warmed up, and the Gryphon concedes nothing to the CJ...betters it in every way and I loved the CJ for 9 years. Plus it adds a power thru the mid and upper bass that the CJ had no ability to do.
Notes:
1. The realism has increased...my test for this is to go into the next room and listen. When it sounds like someone is singing next door, that's my "unscientific test".
2. What I find most remarkable about this amp is it truly is as powerful as (at least I) could possibly want. No strain at volumes that punch thru 2 floors of concrete block apartment bldg so the neighbor comes upstairs afters 3 minutes to complain.
3. But it retains the purity of tone which is what I first found so amazing when I first heard tubes (and immediately bought that day in the store...CJ MV60). Many SS amps have great drive, but the uppers have a hardness I could not get used to.
4. I find it hard to dissect the sounds...more focus on the music which I enjoy. I also find it harder to play just the first 30 seconds of a track to test things...instead I want to hear the song.
5. Finally, the amp almost feels like it can do all of this while truly playing different parts of the music in more the way I imagine the artist may have originally played it. For example, bells don't sound like an afterthought anymore...they sound like the artist used them for a reason...to emphasize a passage or a tempo change. I suspect much of this is a combination of much greater dynamic range than the 55-watt tube amp I had (good as it was)...and the added, tremendous control and accuracy that allows the amp to keep all the different instruments going at the same time in their own space, rhythm and relative volume.
7. Overall, this is an amp of remarkable quality. I am grateful for the opportunity to own one (at a good s/hand price) and enjoy music. After all, that's what this is all about in the end.
8. Thank you to every single person who helped shaped my thinking. As you can see, I spent 9 intensive months talking, reading, consulting and listening...and changed my mind from originally wanted powerful tubes (as this forum is titled) to going SS Class A.
I will continue to both post and read throughout AGon. All the best. |
seems the Gryphon has kissed Lady Stradivari out of her sleep!
it can only get better soundwise, suspect a 3 month period with some nice PC to get it blossoming.
great to read your first impression.
keep us posted. and tell us about the green bias procedure. |
That's awesome, Lloyd. I bet those Strads really shine with the extra reserve power on tap.
Better tell your neighbor to get used to it, because from here out "The House's gonna be rockin" |
So at long last...the Gryphon has landed! She's been running for about 30 min...so far from warmed up. Initial reaction? 1. More detail than my CJ MV60. I now even more fully appreciate how good the CJ was (already left it with London store to sell). The level of detail is greater which I love, but I it is pretty stratosphere levels which aren't necessary to really enjoy your system. CJ had good dimensionality and spaciousness. Gryphon again better but CJ stood up well. 2. Surprising amount of the purity of tone I enjoy about tubes. 3. Now here's the part where the Gryphon struts its stuff...RIDICULOUSLY fun amounts of unadulterated power and control!!!! Wooo hooo! My neighbor 2 floors below came up to say he could "hear and feel" the track in his apartment...oops! Sorry...got a little carried away playing Deep House music! 4. As it nears 45 min from cold start (ie no power at all...not even standby) it continues to gain purity of tone...my Zanden DAC takes almost 4 hours to reach peak so I am used to this. 5. I love this thing. Wow. Back with more later. Gotta change the track and continue testing a bit... |
yes i can imagine the addicton or a love for certain speaker i got the same for my Verity. and the AtmaSphere OTL is known to me to say the least..
it may be worth trying out the Autoformers which will be great for what they do.
i have learnt alot from mixing and matching through the years and made less than happy choices and also found very lucky combinations as per try.
the interesting thing is that combinations which may form a dream team on paper still don't work out in the real world.
maybe that is just the reason there is some many gear for sale again. and nothing wrong with that.
hard to tell which PC may be best for the Gryphon and your situation. it's part of the journey to buy and resell to finally settle on a particular brand and type.
try out the Valhalla PC too.
fwiw: just today my local CD store put out signs at the street with 50% discount on it.
just happened to be at the other side of the street doing a haircut. i walked in and bought 80 CD's for halve price.
reason for closedown of the shop was a downhill on sales due to internet sales and the www downloads.
it felt doublesided, happy to score so much great titles for a 50% discount, but at the same time felt sorry for the shop owner.
as the song goes: 'The times, They are a changing' |
personally i see no reason to go OTL first and put in Speltz Autoformers later because of bad speaker impedance. why not choose 'good' speakers first? Agreed, but sometimes a person is already heavily invested in their speakers(emotionally or financially) and the Zeros are a low cost(& effort) way to seem if a particular amp will work to their satisfaction. In Lloyd's case, his system wasn't designed around removing output transformers(OTL), so the philosophical transgression of adding an autoformer isn't as big a factor. |
Thanks, Tuboo! I learn every time i read your posts. As for dominus ferox, if you have specific recommendations on other PCs i should consider, please let me know. I am thinking transparent reference, possibly Gryphon's own VIP or Siltech. Your thoughts/recommendations are most welcome! |
the Dominus in itself is a great PC but the next level Anniversary easily betters it. if you crave for speed and resolution i would however not pick Purist cables as first choice.
the SF speakers benefit greatly from Fast-Authorative- Speed and Resolution amps and cables. remember it is all in the match :-) i would first settle in with your Dominus, take your time and eventually try another PC.
the Speltz autoformers are a solution to a problem for sure.
personally i see no reason to go OTL first and put in Speltz Autoformers later because of bad speaker impedance.
why not choose 'good' speakers first?
i don't say the Autoformers don't work or don't sound good.
but to me it's like towing a caravan behind a sportscar and using slick tires still. well something like that.
i think high wattage as per definition is not a sign of a 'good' amplifier. and you don't need 300 watts to drive the 93 dB Stradivari.
you rather need 50 superb watts. the first few watts count most.
high wattage may be a sign of capacity but it says nothing about quality of powersupply nor authority.
big & heavy amps says nothing about authority and control too.
as a great example the little Cello Encore 50 amplifiers look like little sigar boxes and weigh nothing. i would dare to say these are more powerful sounding then many many amplifiers be it 300 or even 1000 watts.
the 'little' FM 111 monoamps would apply very nicely too.
or the 'little' Boulder 800 series. these amps would get any SF speaker on their knees :-)
don't let specs and size or even marketing 'the bigger the better' mislead. it may account for in many cases but not per definition.
now the big Gryphon is big and heavy for intrinsic reasons. it is one of the few true class A amps out there and this means big heatsinks and so acres of heat dissipation alloy. pure Class A rules be it SS or tubes.
once again congratulations on your Gryphon and Stradivari match and looking forward to read your experiences on Gon. |
Hi Lloyd,
Zero's are nothing more than impedance matching transformers(actually autoformers - just a primary instead of the primary & secondary in transformers). They serve exactly the same function as output transformers in tube power amplifiers, which are used to match the impedance of the output stage to the speakers.
Paul Speltz seems like a great guy from his postings and is extremely proud and confidant of his product. It probably wouldn't be difficult to get a trial out of him. He also can wind custom Zeros for specific situations,if I remember correctly. Although, yours is a fairly basic one.
Of course, excess power and headroom are always a good thing with all speakers, especially medium to low efficiency ones. So, in the end, you may need 100-300+ watts to fully realize the potential of your Strads on dynamic passages. Even then, though, the Zeros would help. |
Tuboo,
What power cords are your Antileon owning friends using? I have read PAD Dominus Ferox which is my goal. I think Gryphon use Siltech? Someone else recommended Transparent Ref PCs...I do love their reference speaker and interconnects which run throughout my system. Thanks for your advice!! Lloyd |
Hi Darkmoebius. Thanks for your thoughts! I do not know this product and will look into it. I know that Musical Fidelity has their superchargers which sound like they do the same thing but "supercharging" amps. I do not know the technology but I did see at least two reviews which were both a little mixed on the success. (Basically, more grunt and volume...but a loss of the refinement from the original amp standalone). Your recommendation may well be better solution. Thanks again. |
I know were are talking about absolute "reference" level speakers and components here, but I'm surprised that with this many suggestions and responses so far, no one has recommended simply trying Paul Speltz Zero Autoformers to increase the impedance seen by Llyod's amplifiers. They can be used to double, or even quadruple, the load seen by the amplifiers. As a result, amps that "run out of steam" may often handle previously impossible speakers without breaking a sweat. In many, many, systems, insertion of the Zeros not only remove the impedance issue, they are undetectable from a sonic standpoint. Give the FAQ a read. Not saying they are guaranteed to work in every situation, or even this particular one, but for $450 in the naked version and $950 in the boxed, it is a far cheaper, and easier, experiment than all the fantastic amps being suggested. And even high-powered tube or solid state amps can still benefit from seeing a higher impedance. I know this sounds like an ad, but I haze no connection to the company, professional, financial, or otherwise. Just passing on a little suggestion from the world of high-efficiency speakers/low-power SET amps and OTL amps. |
The Gryphon Antileon (signature) as i have experienced and as reviewed by others may very well be the best product of Mr Rasmussen.
personally i do not like the Gryphon preamps very much.
but i know from Antileon owners that with the right speakers and powercords it is one of those amps to die for and inhibits the magic factor.
congrats on your choice, and pls report your findings :-)
that is: if you can find time to withdraw from the music..
pls repeat the mantra with us:
'It's all in the match' |
Lloyd
Don't try to lift the Antileon alone!! they are very heavy.
congrat's on your choice.
As a wise man once said -
"There is no best, only best for you "
enjoy and let us know your longer term thoughts, ie do you still need the subs after you have dialled teh system in etc.
cheers |
Hi Tuboo, Downunder and all the many great A'Goners out there who have contributed to this particular forum. After reading, speaking, auditioning a number of great products, I have gone for the Gryphon Antileon. It arrived yesterday and is delivered tomorrow! I am considering matching it with a PAD Dominus PC but will start with the stock cable for now..
Having listened carefully to many great systems and remembering what happened when I replaced my CJ PV14L with the CJ Act2, I realized that there are a number of qualities which the Gryphon delivers that I think will bring me closer to 'where my ear is taking me'. It will be nice to hear my system with the Gryphon for a much longer period than a brief audition...to really understand how my system has changed. Cannot wait! And it's a long weekend!!
Thanks again for all the great advice. Will report in!! |
there are very enthusiast reports on Stradivari and Soulution as a match made in heaven. think i read these at the Greek ACA website where many show attendants reviewed this combination as absolutely stellar. and that in the light of show conditions.
if i still had Stradivari i would have no doubt as for amps: they would be SS and could be chosen for personal liking due to character. we might likely agree that the Boulders are bit different than the Vitus amps. |
Thanks Tuboo. I agree with your comments about SS v Tubes...ultimately we are looking for what we feel is "real music" (not SS or Tube), and i also agree that the best of each technology do trend towards that singular goal. Beyond that, the ultimate way of getting there is different for each person.
To all those who have been so helpful in their advice: i have not formally committed yet to anything...but expect to do so quite soon fingers crossed. Just working out the details. Fingers crossed! Will post if and when done. |
Have actually partnered my Stradivari at that time with Lamm M1.2Ref for a longer period. although a nice combination as for sound and an 'easy' on the ear musical experience, after the Accuphase P7100 match the Lamm hybrid was soon forgotten and parked in our memories as NOT the match with Stradivari.
id rather think of Accuphase, Gryphon, FMA, Boulder, Soulution, Krell, Ayre.
ymmv :-) |
I would prefer the Lamm 1.2 Ref. to any tube amp with this kind of speaker. |
