SACD 2 channel vs Redbook 2 Channel

Yes, it probably was a bad analogy but I think it was close enough to get the point through =)

No, Ritteri it is not close enough. the VHS/Betamax analog doesn't work for the most part since with video cassette player/recorders you were limited to physically supporting one format or the other. I am unaware of universal cassette players. Though admittedly I am pretty young and that type of player may have existed at one time. But still I am unware of such a beast.

But I do have one simple angument. With more and more universal players coming to market, how can there be a format war? I believe I first hear this argument from Ric Shultz. The day will come when you will walk into your electronics store and and clerk will show you several digital players. He will show you several that can play all of the digital formats except one (doesn't matter what it is, dvd-a, sacd, svcd, etc) and several that can play ALL of the formats. Both are the same price or close. Even if you are the basic unwashed audiophile consumer, which player are you going to pick? The one that plays everything!

In the scenario is wouldn't matter what disc you buy whether it be SACD, DVD-A, DVD-A, VCD, mp3s, redbook CDs, any 5 inch polycarbonate disc is going to play in that player. Except for portable or car audio players you would be covered. This could not happen in the VHS/Betamax world. the formats were physically incompatible as far as I understood it. And for a most part, I feel this largely invalidates the Betamax argument as far as SACD and DVD-A in concerned.

Or are you arguing that like betamax, DVD-A and SACD are going to be relagated to niche markets (like betamax was and still is)? This is true. But then again so is vinyl. And so is the hobby of high-end audio. So what? You said "one word: Betamax". OK. Please elaborate.

"Sorry, but I have yet to hear ANY SACD player put out a better musical signal than a competently built "redbook" player"

So, you just admitted that you have VERY little experience to SACD. It's common for the unlearned to proclaim absolute knowledge based on limited actual experience. Absolutes only come from the unlearned in this hobby, or the arrogant and self-loving, neither of which types are a useful source of information in my experience.

"thank the sound engineer who recorded the disc, not the disc itself"

Does this make any sense to anyone? It doesn't to me. Poor argument, I won't even bother with it unless it can be expanded upon greatly. Though it's nowhere as inane as this comment:

"Ever check out one of those old Sony recievers with all the differnt modes of ambiance? Like "Hall", "Stadium","Live" etc etc?? Basically thats whats done to the SACD in simple terms"

What a load! You've clearly not had adequate exposure to the format, as anyone with a halfway decent SACD player can easily see from your writing, despite what you'll no doubt claim shortly. I suppose all remastered redbook albums are pure as the new fallen snow, however, right?

"So why dont redbook cd's get remastered?"

Uh, they do. Do your homework, most CD layers of the hybrid SACD get the exact same DSD mastering technology used on them, the DSD is down-converted to PCM, yet oddly enough 99.9% of listeners will prefer the SACD layer of their hybrids. Go figure.

"How many people do you think in the general population care about remastering obscure CD's such as the ones listed?"

How about tens of thousands, of people, millions of coppies sold overall. Again, do your homework, look at the sales stats for those "obscure" and "dated" recordings, don't just spew negativity about.

"If SACD was such a grand stepping stone...and had a profitable future then alot more mfg. would be jumping on the bandwagon to produce SACD players."

Uh, they are! Again, you've not done your homework or you would notice a trend of aftermarket players taking over for mass market players in the industry. Sony and Philips have backed off and the likes of Bel Canto, Linn, McCormack, Esoteric, EMM Labs, dCS and a dozen other companies have taken over the reigns on the hardware side, with more players coming.

Again, do your homework, don't be so blindly pessimistic and negative all the time, you might learn something.

"One word: BETAMAX. SACD is already heading down the same path."

You base this on what exactly? Pretty weak or I'm pretty dumb. Given the second as true, please explain this one to me as well.

"And one last thing tireguy, for every cd you listed that may sound better on SACD from your opinion, Im sure I could pull up just as many(and many more) that sound as good or better on a regular cd."

Please, by all means, give me a list of CD's you have that sound better then their SACD counterpart. I'm sure EVERYONE here would like to know about them.

Ritteri, from what you've written, just like Ben, it's clear that you heard a single, low-fi or unproperly setup SACD player, playing some of the worst offerings software wise on said machine next to a stupidly expensive Redbook setup, then decided to start a crusade to call ALL SACD players and software inferior redbook, point blank. Surely, if a $10K redbook player sounds better then your $500 SACD player unproperly setup and playing junk titles then it is very logical to conclude that ALL CD players sound better then SACD players, same with the titels of course....I hope that I'm not the only one that can read between the lines here....

Little Milton I don't think yout inclusion of myself back into this argument is merited and it reads like a whole lot of quotes I never made.

Ritteri,
In the past, people at Audiogon who have argued their positions in the same way as you are here, have lost all credibility among the community. Your comments are very elementary in nature and for the most part hardly defendable. The simple statement about remastered redbook to redbook is evidence of your weak position here. Old recordings have been remastered for years. Not to SACD but to redbook for the simple reason of improving the master along with the technology. These remastered cd's have sold millions of copies to the masses, not just the audiophile. Please drop your position before you embarrass yourself any further and get tagged as a simple flamer.
Now for a comment on your system. You have an excellent cd player, not my personal taste, but a great player non-the-less. I would suggest finding a comparable SACD player for your comparisons. That may be very difficult to do in that your running your volume from your digital player and you would need a pre-amp to run SACD. Now you would be comparing apples and peas. Not even the same family! My guess is you have never made a direct comparison redbook to SACD on your system using all fruit.
I'm sure you'll have some comment to defend yourself, remember your reputation will stick for a long time.