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Sibilance issues with vinyl rig

howdy
I've recently gotten into vinyl, investing quite heavily, and coming away unimpressed and frustrated.
the problem is sibilance...I find some albums almost unbearable, and if not unbearable, not terribly pleasant to listen to. On other albums, there is a sibilant 'cast' - even surface noise, and tick and pops have a hollow, pitched up characteristic to them that is unlike I've experienced listening to other systems. When people say 'vinyl sounds way better than cd's', I wonder what the hell they're talking about, or what it is that I'm doing wrong.
I should list out my system quickly just in case there's some familiarity within the membership and perhaps a quick fix, and also to see where I'm at in this hobby:
Rega Saturn cd player
Modwright swl9.0se pre amp
Cary audio slm 70 mono blocks
Totem model 1's
totem thunder sub
running springs haley power conditioning
harmonic tech cabling throughout
vinyl rig:
vpi scoutmaster with jmw-9 signature tonearm and single flywheel motor upgrade and vpi sds
benz micro ace low output mc cartridge
sim audio lp5.3 phono stage
harmonic tech magic cables (used) between turntable and phono stage, and between the phono stage and Modwright pre (new)...I've noted this as the magic cables are newer than what's in the rest of the system.
The lp5.3 phono stage is used, I'm the third owner
The cartridge was new....the turntable, cartridge and magic cables to the phono stage have about 100-150 hours on them now.
I'm quite happy with the cd playback...the saturn was the best under $5000 player I'd auditioned, save for one, and that is in the company of krell, copland, meridian, etc...so in general the system as a whole performs rather well...and no sibilance issues with cd playback.
I set up the turntable myself, following Michael Fremer's dvd in which he demo'd the setup of a scoutmaster. I do have a nice digital stylus gauge, and have purchased the soundsmith counterintuitive to assist with the difficulty of setting the tracking force/azimuth on this tonearm. I can't say I'm an expert at setup, but in listening there are no other issues (left/right balance, tracking erors, etc), so I figure I'm 90% there.
I've tried every resistive setting on the lp5.3. I've tried lowering the output, but I already need to set the volume at 4-5 out of 10 to get where the volume is equal to what 3 out of 10 provides using cd playback, and it didn't solve my problem anyway (thought the sibilance might be caused overloading the rest of the signal path..btw, the benz has an output of .4mv). I fiddled with vta, and found little if any difference. I meticulously clean my records (most of which are brand new) before playing, put them in rice paper sleeves, and use the requisite record and stylus cleaning brushes...in other words, I'm meticulous and thorough. I listen to a huge variety of music, and have extreme familiarity with some (admittedly not all) of the albums - I know how they should sound...ironically, it's the ones I'm familiar with that bother me the most. I do assume the new components should be broken in by now, and either way, there has been little or no change since the initial setting up.
I've invested a chunk of money time and effort, and expected the vinyl rig to sound at least as good as the cd, but I'm disappointed....would really appreciate any input...help!
josephwol
josephwol OP
2 posts
 
hey guys
thanks for all the responses...yowsa.
It will take a while to digest, and yes I will investigate all the suggestions...except the ones about replacing everything...?
A few comments:
The table is level and on a heavy stand, and I have played more than a couple of albums...probably over a hundred thus far. There is a sibilant 'cast' to all, and of course, some offend more than others. Some waaaaay more. If it was only an issue with a few, I wouldn't have posted at all.
Schipo, the problem is sibilance not tics and pops (notice no mention of this in my op)...and by the way, I am almost 50, and had a turntable years ago...and I don't like mp3's :).
Dgarrettson: I do have the headshell weight you've suggested, I could not get the proper tracking force without it, which now sits at about 2g.
I do have the VTA quite low, still no luck.
I've been cleaning all (mostly new) records with the spin-clean system...the cartridge is brand new as I noted, so it is probably still pretty clean.
And as far as the phono stage, I really doubt if the Sim would be offensive...
I'm still thinking it's a break in issue, I've experienced this before. I will keep at it, and give it another 100 hours or so, and then it's off to the experts...
Audiofeil...?
markd51
763 posts
 
I've discussed this issue not only this time around, but before with others, as to why there seems to be no clear cut answer as to why sibilance problems are noted, and have now all of a sudden seem to be commonplace with a JMW Arm.

I don't recall ever reading such in the past, and the JMW seemed always praised as a very good Arm. So what changed?

Years ago, when I was using nothing but MM Cartridges, and some fairly decent AT, and Shure Models, I never seemed to notice much in the way of artifacts, and in truth, I never had a protractor, just those miserably cheap $2 plastic Stylus Alignment Gauges. Never noticed much in the way of break in either with these. They sounded good fresh from the box, and changed little as they got some hours on them.

But enter the MC, and here's where things started to become complicated. The amassing of tools of all sorts, and the OCD setting in.

Even with my own ZYX Airy 3X fresh from the box, I experienced some sibilance on certain tracks, as one example was Tony Bennet spitting a little too much into the Mic on the tune "San Francisco".

It was my error though, erroneously thinking I could follow some other poster's recommendations of setting VTF to 1.86g right off the bat, with a fresh out of the box Airy 3 Cartridge. Increasing VTF to an even 2.0g solved that problem when the cartridge was new.

And as others here have taught me, to not ever assume what might work for others, especially as an optimum VTF setting, will then optimally work for you.

These MC's will need some break in time, and about all I can add, is analog is a medium which of course is not plug and play. Something may be assumed to be correct, such as a Stylus Force Gauge, but can be something that is overlooked, and in error. One needs to confirm accuracy of such tools, to at least know if you are setting the Cartridge at say 2.0g, that it is truly indeed 2.0g, and not some huge error, like actually being 1.5g.

That although one should trust their ears to optimum settings of VTF, one still should know accurately that they are in the ballpark range of VTF per manufacturer's given specs. I would bet many have been fooled with less than accurate set up tools.

This is just one example I cite. There can be others as well. Take VTA as another example. I too have been fooled by thinking I was at a neutral VTA, and was actually quite far from it. While not all cartridges may optimally work at neutral VTA, it should be a baseline from which to go from.
Mark
audiofeil
4,011 posts
 
>>02-07-11: Josephwol
Audiofeil...?<<

My recommendation?

Get rid of it.

Life's too short.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
The 9 inch JMW is not a good choice for MC cartridges. It simply is not good enough for this. The 10 inch JMW arm is much better in this regard. JMW 9 may be fine for MM, I am going to try this. I am planning to upgrade down the road. I just like the way the Benz sounds and it is hard to give up. I would have to think that the mistracking that is occuring cannot be good for my records

I had the JMW 9 and Scout in to have it professionally analyzed about a year ago. They could not believe how poorly the JMW 9 tracked with the MC cartridge and pretty much told me (trying to be nice about it) that the Benz was too much cartridge for the arm. They did not say that MM cartridges would not sound as good or better than MC cartridges, he just said they inherently require different things (more Mass)and different tonearm designs to sound their best. They recommended a MM cartridge for the JMW 9 on the spot. I was not willing to see the light at the time. I thought I must be doing something wrong.

I had an audiophile friend come over as he knows how to set up a table. He has a thirty year old table that tracks absolutely amazing. The sound is so solid, deep, and detailed. I am a little jeolous as I never believed a record could sound so good.

It is possible, very possible. I am now a believer.

He also told me time for a MM cartridge or a new setup.

I guess MM cartridges can be very good and are worth looking into.
jyprez's avatar
jyprez
241 posts
 
You mention very little about the software side of your analog setup as opposed to the hardware. Any vinyl after 1984 is very likely digitally processed and no better than the CD. Unless you are committed to collecting from high quality 1940 - 1984 issues, I would suggest sticking to digital as you will never experience what analog was really capable of.
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