Silver v Copper wire phono cable

This whole conversation of silver versus copper is nebulous.

Far more important is the actual phono loom construction - for example, is the cable twisted pair plus shield ( my  preferred construct ), coaxial, balanced, etc

The electrical parameters which are determined by the loom construct and volume of wire will factor in to the performance - and will be dependent on the phono cartridge and phono stage.

For that reason any comparision between silver and copper are irrelevant unless the cable loom construction is identical in the comparision. 

For example for MC cartridges  I use MIT, but the cable is too capacitive for MM & MI cartridges. So for MM/MI cartridges I use an Audioplan silver cable ( that was never released due to cost ).

As far as internal arm wire anything with teflon insulation is too stiff. My preferences are Audio Note silver, Kondo silver, based on sound quality ( coherency & transparency ) and flexibility. There are other solutions not commonly used - for example the Naim Aro internal wire is shotgunned ( doubled up ) within the arm tube but retaining single wire format through the critical unipivot bearing. This is an example of a manufacturer wanting to achieve both flexibility through the critical bearings as well as an electrical model that is optimised.

The mechanical and electrical properties of the tonearm wire loom in toto are in the ways outlined above arguably more important than whether it is copper silver etc.

In fact nobody has talked about platinum, gold or bronze or ribbon vs round vs rectangular cross sections all of which are available as options.

the choices, for me, will be FINEWIRE C37+cryo, OFC copper or Ag4N, in the Reed 2G

Thank you to all interested members

J

Silver ADDS a 5khz to 8khz rise, even though slight, that creates a hardness / harshness to the signal.

I’ll side with Lew here and until I see verifiable documentation of this I call BS.

Recall that it is possible in an A / B test to detect as little as 3mB difference is signals as demonstrated in blind tests.

I do not ever recall seeing this and until documentation is provided of the pedigree of the A/B test I’ll again call BS. This quote from the Britannica.com sheds some light on the absurdity of the claim.

The unit decibel is used because a one-decibel difference in loudness between two sounds is the smallest difference detectable by human hearing.

I believe this refers to overall level change for an untrained listener and I do believe that an experienced listener can detect smaller changes and also believe that changing a small range of frequencies will allow smaller than 1dB changes to be heard by a larger segment of the population. For any change 333 times smaller, I’d be surprised if there were one person on the planet that could do this.

dave

Dover makes a great point re cable loom construction.

I mentioned in my previous post that I have rewired my ET2 three times. With the exception of the VDH silver plated litz, which the tonearm was internally wired with in stock form, the construction of all three subsequent wire looms (Cardas, Discovery, AudioNote) is absolutely identical. Unlike the VDH, these three wire looms were run externally and in one continuous run (no break) from cartridge clips to the phono preamp (RCA); unshielded until just beyond the point where the free movement of the tangential air bearing would be impeded. Except for the different wire, the length and construction of the three looms are absolutely identical. As I mentioned in my previous post, for me, the AudioNote silver is clearly superior to the two copper wires.

It is true that the two copper wires, Discovery in particular, are less flexible than the AN and this fact alone does undoubtedly affect performance. Out of curiosity, as a rough experiment and certainly not definitive, I experimented DECREASING the amount of flexibility of the AN loom so as to try and mimic the reduced amount of freedom of movement that the bearing “sees” with the Cardas and Discovery looms. This can be achieved easily with very small changes to the way one dresses the wire. I hoped to then be able to get a better sense of what were the characteristics of the conducting materials (silver/copper) without the added influence of more or less freedom of movement of the wire. There were clearly some subtle negative audible effects of reducing the wire’s flexibility. Interestingly, the most obvious was a perceived reduction in soundstage width and depth; akin to what is heard with the Cardas. However, the spectral balance remained essentially the same as well as the general superiority of the AudioNote silver in the areas of clarity and overall refinement.

It has been claimed that the “distortions” of silver (the material) may be erroneously perceived as superiority in the context of a “deficient” system. However, this argument can easily be turned on its head. It is entirely possible and probable to my way of thinking that the superior inherent clarity of a silver wire (well, at least the AudioNote), perhaps due to its provable superior conductivity and lessened resistivity, lays bare problems with the “components” that preceded it in the chain. In this case, with the cartridge and possibly its setup.

For kicks, or when I need an audio “fix” (boredom? 😊), I will occasionally reinstall the Cardas or Discovery wire looms. The results are always the same. After having lived with the AN, I could not go back to either on a long term basis.

@frogman A good Post and one that is off interest to myself, especially as I have already got the AN Silver Female Tags on a short list to use with a wire I am looking to produce along with a Pure Copper Female Tag.   

The trial will include Wires that are used already and selected for continued use and the Wires that I am attempting to produce. It has been agreed that the Wires used in the Trials are to be mounted externally on the Wand and be a continuous Length from Female Tag Connector to RCA.

Your report on your experiences and the differences discovered are hopefully going to be reciprocated in a similar form, when the trials I am trying to encourage are undertaken. 

Your experience has highlighted another wire to be considered and the use of the AN Silver Wire is also one I would like to experience during these trials, even though I know the Tonearm Builders who I working with are with a enthusiasm for pure copper.