Small or large sub for music

sleepwalker65 wrote:

Subwoofers are a bad solution for inadequate speakers. They are mutually exclusive with high fidelity because they can never perfectly integrate. Some people and rappers don’t care about sound quality. Low-Fi is fine for them. For the rest of us, subwoofers only belong in the home theatre.

I guess it depends on what you mean by the term inadequate.  After 45 years of audio and hundreds of speakers (I used to be an  audio dealer and distributor) I have come to the conclusion that, for most rooms and most speaker designs, the concept of a "perfect" full range speaker is very hard to achieve; bordering on the impossible.

These days I play almost exclusively through tube components, SET and low output PP.  I have extensively tested many high efficiency, single driver speakers and find that, to my ears, limiting the driver size to 8" or smaller and mating to a pair of good sealed subs gives my more audio joy and sense of performance realism than the (many pairs) pf much more expensive "full range" speakers I have played and owned in the past.

It's true: getting the best sound out of a pair of standmount speakers and separate subs isn't easy.  It's a lot of work to get it just right.  But IMO it's worth it.

mcreyn:

" As far as room treatments, I believe that most rooms can benefit from them. The speakers and their interaction with the room are by far the largest determining factor in sound. I do believe in optimizing placement as a first step, but then what? Most rooms have long decay times and the first reflection points are too close, causing image smearing and brightness. $500-1000 in room treatments can transform how a system sounds. There is very solid science behind the reasons for and how to treat a room. You might find this article interesting:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/room-setup-case-study/

Finally, I think DSP is a great idea when placement and room treatments have not worked. I see the three all working together as a system."

     Perhaps I wasn't clear but my comments were concerning the use of room treatments for optimizing in-room bass response, not midrange and treble response,  and their general futility. 
     I've come to the conclusion that it's best to treat my system as 2 systems: a bass system and a midrange/treble/sound stage illusion system.  The 4 sub dba gets the bass sounding powerful, accurate and defined throughout my entire room without the need for any dsp,  equalization or bass room treatments.  It creates a solid foundation for all music and is excellent for ht.
     The final step is positioning the main speakers to optimize the midrange. treble and sound stage illusion at the listening position sweet spot (unfortunately, there's currently no known method of optimizing this response throughout the entire room  as currently exists for bass response. via the 4 sub dba.)  I completely agree with you that there are very necessary and beneficial methods, backed by solid science, of employing room treatments for optimizing the in-room midrange and treble response along with optimizing the sound stage illusion/imaging at the designated listening position.
Tim

mceryn:
Finally, I think DSP is a great idea when placement and room treatments have not worked. I see the three all working together as a system.

Proper positioning of my subwoofers and their onboard customizable Room Optimization has always improved their performance. I've never been satisfied with low frequency room treatments. A mater of taste and probably just lucky with my last three rooms.

I have a “full” range speakers supported by 2 JL212 subs. The subs Integrated with the main speakers so well that now I cannot listen to the system without the subs. The quality of the subs is very critical.

I would disagree and say that getting the phase, crossover, sub volume, and room modes taken care of are more important than a high quality sub.

A few well integrated Dayton subs can outperform a hifi subwoofer that is much higher quality.

One of the reasons some hifi folks hate subwoofers is because you can’t just spend more to get better bass. Ironically more expensive subs can just amplify problems with the room and setup since they are so powerful.

Iseanheis 1: "I would disagree and say that getting the phase, crossover, sub volume, and room modes taken care of are more important than a high quality sub.""

     I agree and would suggest getting the room modes taken care of (significantly reduced or eliminated) is a good place to start.  In my experience, this is relatively easy to do with 4 subs but more difficult to do with just 2 subs.  With 2 subs, the goal needs to be lowered to taking care of room modes solely at the listening position, which is acceptable for many systems.
     I believe many are under the false impression that if you just use 2 high quality/expensive subs and place them in convenient positions it will result in good bass response.  I would caution that this approach will likely provide plenty of bass but whether one would perceive this as 'good bass' is much less likely.  I can state with certainty that utilizing 4 properly positioned subs, even if they are of lower quality and size, will result in more accurate bass that is better integrated along with the capacity for impressive bass power as well as the agility to keep pace with the fastest main speakers that never produces bass that lags behind or seems disconnected.
     I consider getting the crossover frequency, volume and phase set correctly as final fine tuning steps to attain a desired in-room bass response standard or preference.
     I just want to stress that attaining state of the art bass response via a properly setup distributed bass array system is not a matter of opinion.  It is a scientifically proven method that works incredibly well in virtually any room.  It just happens to have the added benefits of not requiring the highest quality subs, having the option of being bought as a complete kit or custom assembled and being affordable.
    I'm also certain that most, if not all, readers who audition a dba would recognize its obvious excellence quickly in their or really any system.
 Tim