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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
ricevs
1,543 posts
 

Divine Mother just says yes to everything.....including what you do

Divine Father is here to teach you how to act loving. 

When you embody both.....you have a great parent.  The Divine mother part of us says first and most important of all.....I love you, you are beautiful and I am grateful and blessed by your presence.  Then the Divine Father part of us steps in and says....er...son or daughter....your behavior right then was not loving.....and I am here to teach you how to be more loving.....so don't do that behavior again....understand?  Then Divine mother steps in again and tells the child how much they are loved.  Of course, the child will test the parents and this game repeats itself....however, the second time the Father says......we already went throug this once......so, if you do this again.....there will be a consequence you will not like.......then when the child does it again.....the father actualy implements the deterent as the child is being stubborn.  All the while divine mother is loving the child.

When we take our ego postion as some serious reality that needs defending then when daddy says our behavior is not great then we get angry and defensive.....we want to hurt daddy.......however, Mommy is always there loving you and daddy is actually just loving you too.  It is for your benefit that 'coach daddy" corrects us.    We become better and more loving people.  We are all "coach daddy" for each other. WE are not our ego, our opinion, we don't need to fight or argue with anyone.  We can just state our truth.  And the daddy in each of us can see the ego in each other.  Most of us are afraid to confront the ego of someone else as we don't think much of ourself and we would not want that person talking about us.....or pointing out our flaws.  What a stupid mess.....he he.  We are ALL here to grow in love and truth......and therefore we need to be able to hear what daddy has to say....and see if it is true and take the appropriate actions to make ourselves better. 

On a public forum we cannot be alpha to another.....we are all equals.  We are each others parent and child but we cannot lay down "behavior modification techniques" like a parent to a child.  However, we can still tell it like we see it.  For that helps people to grow.  They might fight against your point of view......but their soul hears the truth (if any) that you might say.  So please, tell the truth.....always...it always serves us.  To take personally what someone else says about us is childish.  Everyones thoughts are simply them talking to themselves.  This is me talking to myself.  Who actually replies to Mahgister?.....not many. Who is he talking to?......himself.  We all talk a lot to ourself.....but is what we say to ourself the TRUTH?......or just made up fiction.

I try to make my words a teaching so others can learn to have better sound and a happier life.....more and more that is all I care about.  Why do you post?  Do you think that anyone really cares about what you say?  Are you helping anyone?  I mean helping them get a better stereo or more happiness?

The truth is very simple. If you need a lot of words and paragraphs and posts to say what you could have said in a sentence or one paragraph....then why are you doing it?  I would love to hear some simply stated words from Maghister about some things that would actually improve my sound or my happiness.  I don't want to hear the word "acoustics" said over and over.  I want some real knowledge that I can implement so I have larger goosebumps when listening.  That is what I want......a better stereo.....and most peopel here...that is what they want.  Will you help us get better sound......with very, very, very simple words?......so we don't tune you out because we have no idea what you are talking about.  Will you make my dreams come true.  Please help me.....divine mother that lives is Mahgister........MA....Ma...it is your name....you are the MA.....she always says YES, Si, DA, JA, Hai....in every language.  Yes, to everyone.....and especially the MA...hgister.

prof
3,474 posts
 

 

@audition__audio 

Shame that he may be responsible for guiding enthusiasts away from better sound and in the process decreasing sales from businesses that actually create.

Only if you think in a pseudo-science paradigm, which has been rife in high end audio for years, unfortunately.

Amir has helped so many audiophiles weed through some of the b.s. in high end claims, so they can spend their money more wisely - for instance, his review and measurements of the Nordost digital cable is educational and can help new, or old audiophiles from spending tons of money where it won't make a damned difference.

You may not avail yourself of this information, in which case you make yourself a mark for audio snake oil salesmen, but not all of us want to be a mark.

 

ricevs
1,543 posts
 

I have not read his reivew of the Nordost digital cable.....but I KNOW.....through listening tests that all digital cables sound different.  If Amir thinks he knows what something sounds like (or thinks it has no sound) without listening to it......it is the same as someone knowing what a certain brand of chocolate tastes like by measuring it.  Our senses rule....they are more sensitive than any test gear.  Check this out.....this will make all you anti snake oil people cringe....he he.

 

audition__audio
1,504 posts
 

Prof's post cuts right to the heart of the problem with ARS and its devotees. Judgements that others are wasting their money without them listening to the products in question. How do they know, well they measure and just know. 

This entire thing is made really interesting knowing that Amir owns a 2 channel dealership. Would you tolerate a Stereophile reviewer that sold the product they reviewed? Oh I forgot Amir relies on science so he is immune. Talk about going from utterly insignificant to highly suspect.

 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,183 posts
 

Sorry but your post is a poison wrapped in sugar...

A character attack with lies:

First :

Who actually replies to Mahgister?.....not many. Who is he talking to?......himself.

Have you read all my posts contributions since a year here , concrete contributions ?

In musics, classical and jazz ?

In acoustics which is not room acoustic , but the science of hearing , the matter that interested me ...

many people answered and thank me here or in private mail...

I discussed 7 days with Amir here , in complete disagrement and he never attacked my character as such as you just did doing what you accuse me of doing : patronizing other behind a false good faith ...

 

Then you lied about me and caricatured me ...

Then you used your 5 cents psychology to patronize me... You did with me what you say i did... But in the post i wrote above which you mocked i stated acoustics facts perhaps above your head i dont know... Then here you come and you patronize a "beta" me as the "alpha" you wanted to be with a sugar like guru mantra of false love attitude declaration.. True love is gesture not lesson because who claim to teach others here ? You, not me who discuss arguments from others and not their character stating acoustics facts and important articles you NEVER READ...

 

On a public forum we cannot be alpha to another.....we are all equals. We are each others parent and child but we cannot lay down "behavior modification techniques" like a parent to a child.

We are not parent and child to one another, we are adults and more than mature one...Your claim is absurd as ridiculous pop psychology...

You are so pretentious , you are your own caricature and lying dont seems to pose a problem to you. How can you say that about me : have you read all my posts and discussions? have you read the private posts of people thanking me ?

I already talked a lot about concrete methods to create a good system... ( By the way just few post above i suggested a CONCRETE EXPERIMENT with shungite and quartz) But the last years i was more interested by hearing theory...Are you so ignorant to think that "tweaks" only matter and not acoustics which is not room acoustics ? You suppose no one is interested by hearing theory ?

And now YOU DECIDE WHAT PEOPLE HERE NEED and you declare that my post are useless..

I would love to hear some simply stated words from Maghister about some things that would actually improve my sound or my happiness. I don’t want to hear the word "acoustics" said over and over. I want some real knowledge that I can implement so I have larger goosebumps when listening. That is what I want......a better stereo.....and most peopel here...that is what they want.

Your post is a caricature and a character attack...Your own ego is so big it is comic to read you speaking of the ego of others...

i will stop here because you have no arguments... Save you dont like someone different from you claiming anything over your head as hearing theories facts...

You yourself present yourself as an audio guru with a site...

I am here to discuss with adults about acoustics and music...( not child-parenmt)

I am of good faith even if my posts may be clumsy ( english is not my language)

You never spoke to me nor answered my arguments or articles, you do your show to show others here your own importance by attacking a character a bit too large for your taste it seems ... Despicable ..And pathetic...

 

«Your ego is too big mine is really small»-- Groucho Marx 🤓

 
 

 

 

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