Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Stop projecting! You accused others of fetichism. I just pointed out yours accordingly.

 

--- Many Subjectivist are fetichist of their gear pieces Brand name as SOLUTION for all ...

This is illustrated by all audio thread...😊 It is not always bad i used statistical analysis of all reviews to buy my gear)

---Many objectivists are fetichists of their own measuring tool and only bought what their tools dictate... ( specs are useful for basic electrical synergy and designing minimal standards of quality thats all they are mostly meaningless to predict sound quality )

 

If you had read my posts instead of insulting me and asking me to quit , you will know that i use my ears and i use also objective acoustics parameters measures to create my own dedicated room based on Helmholtz principle among other basic acoustics facts..

I never proposed my favorite gear as SOLUTION for the only reason it is my fetish object of choice as others did all the time ( i modified my gear anyway😋) ... And i dont propose my fetish tool as the ONLY solution to gear purchase as Amir does...

i for years advocated for many low cost tweaks ... ( i was insulted for that as thin foil hat )

but i am most interested in acoustics science now because i go deeper in experiments ...

Then if you can think you can see that i am not fetichist about any object, gear or tool , but i am interested by acoustic principle to install the gear and make it work at his optimal level ... ( i modified my headphone and my speakers)

Complete success at peanuts cost thanks to acoustic experiments and other tweaks i designed ..

i promote reading basic acoustics.. ( not just room acoustic basic)

Then i cannot be accused of fetichism because there is no object on which i focus my exclusive interest save science and experiments in acoustic..

Then you insulted me with NO REASON ...

 

 

 

I did not insult Amir. I just stated what was true...........that much of his thinking is an ego trip. This is just truth. Not an insult. We all have an ego. If we did not we would walk into the street and get run over. We need the ego to survive. However, we do not need much of it to live a glorious life. If Amir was here I would kiss and hug him and tell him how beautiful he is.

When someone says something not true then it is up to everyone who knows the truth to chime in. If we let lies prevail then the ultimate truth (that we are eternal love and joy) will not be attained. All truth is tied together. Whether it is physical truth or metaphysical truth. If we speak with forked tongues then we all lose. Say and live the truth. The truth is.....everyone is totally in love with everyone and everything.....forever and ever. However, it takes a million lifetimes to realize it totally. We have eternity.

We don’t NEED science to know what is real.....about audio or about life. We are a miracle......70 trillion cells dancing in love and joy. We KNOW what is real. We experience it directly. I don’t need a science lesson to know which DAC sounds better. I use my ears. If you want to continue and fight Amir using words and science quotes......then have at. But does it bring you happiness? Do you feel more love and joy when you post?.......I am listening right now to some incredibly spiritual music and the sun is shinning outside my window and the leaves are dancing in the wind. It is always a miracle. I wish more of this for you and everyone. Please stop fighting and TRYING to prove you are OK......and feel how loved you are.

Go outside and put your arms up in the air and proclaim to the whole world......"Thank you LIFE.....for the glorious love that you bestow on me right this minute. I feel so blessed. I will spread this love and joy to everyone. Thank you, thank you, thank you.....forever"

You are worthy.....you are worthy......you don’t need to do or say anything.....you are worthy just as you are. You were always worthy.....will always be worthy. Let it in....let it in....let it in.........you DESERVE IT. You are magnificent!!!!

Here is what I am listening to....right now

 

This is just truth. Not an insult.

 

Ricevs i dont doubt that you are good person at all ...

but i doubt that saying that Amir had an ego is enough to criticize his marketing site ...

i prefer using "incomprehensible" psychoacoustics science articles... 😊

My best to you ...

I have seen some subjective review sites rate gear in regards to "attack" and "decay".

That seems reasonable at face value.  I would equate attack with good transient response, even if not measured and determined in an error prone subjective manner.

Decay though?   Yeah I get teh concept.   Pluck a violin string and the note "decays" gradually.     But I would atribute hearing that in a recording to a good quality recording of teh instrument in question combined with now noise and distortion so teh natural "decay" can be heard.  At teh same time,  I don't want my hifi gear to add "decay" artificially even if that in theory sounds better to the average dude.   I want accuracy and detail in my sound reproduction.  That means low noise and distortion but not just in theory.  I find teh gear that in fact measures well on noise and distortion tends to do all that stuff better....ie more accurately.   No artificial filler, which might sound great.   If others want that ie more of a "good" sounding thing, fine.   Tube gear with high efficiency speakers to help compensate is a reasonable way to go.  TO h-ll with measurements!

I have seen some subjective review sites rate gear in regards to "attack" and "decay".

That seems reasonable at face value. I would equate attack with good transient response, even if not measured and determined in an error prone subjective manner.

Decay though? Yeah I get teh concept. P

 

No you dont get it ...

I did not speak about subjective gear evaluation with attack and decay as main analysis parameters as you suggested here. I was speaking about psychoacoustics wiring of brain/ears by evolution history ...

I dont say it is bad to do so evaluating attack and decay ...

But you dont get the point of what this means in acoustics :

We are wired by evolution this way, then the ears/brain is able to extract information , beating the Fourier uncertainty limit, or the Gabor limit, BECAUSE we are wired this way... The acoustic information that we will characterized as "pleasing" and "musical" will be perceived from our own brain time domain not from the linear  Fourier time domain on the Amir graph  measuring gear pieces ...Our brain break the time symmetry at the root of Fourier mapping... Do you get it ?

Read the articles i suggested...

There is way more in the other articles but if i explained it all i will be gangstalked by some because it will be too long set of posts...

 

I want accuracy and detail in my sound reproduction. That means low noise and distortion but not just in theory.

I want myself a balance between all 14 characteristcs of acoustic qualities...

You dont want detail and accuracy for the sake of detail and accuracy over any other qualities more than any other acoustic characteristic, save if your system /room is defective... Balance is the Key word because all acoustics 14 parameters go TOGETHER ... For sure you can want anything but i dont want to stay ignorant about acoustics balance between all factors ...