Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts


I use a pair of Dunlavy SC-3 speakers, known for their time/phase coherent crossover design.

When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.

Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.

Which brings me to the questions - 
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?

2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?

I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.

Thanks

Rooze


128x128rooze
@millercarbon So, you state with absolute certainty that what myself and others have posted above is incorrect. Really! You are the ONLY person here who knows what they are talking about...:0(
Oh, while you are at it, maybe --just maybe, add to all of your future posts...this...IMHO. Look up what that means if you don’t already know. All IMHO.
@millercarbon thanks for the informative and entertaining post.
Just for a bit of context, I sold a pair of full range speakers last week that didn’t really need subs. The Dunlavy 3 is a great speaker that will cover well until I reinvest in new speakers.
I’m not new to the perils of sub integration nor the DBA theory, and I’ve conversed with Duke a couple times over the years about his Swarm arrangement. I’ve setup a few successful 2+2 systems and had pretty good results with so-called difficult speakers like Magnepan and Apogee.

So with that out of the way, to benefit from the content of your post I also need some context - I’m curious to know what your mains are and whether or not you run them full range. Also, you make no reference to sub quality, only quantity. Are you saying that 4 cheapish subs can produce tight, articulate and extended bass, or is there a requisite standard or level of quality and if so, can you suggest a make/model that you see as the entry point for a successful distributed sub system.

As for the ‘phase’ affect, I only hear what I hear and see what I see. With subs inline, I hear no issues other than that stated. With subs elsewhere, there is a downside, as stated. It may or may not be phase but it sure seems like it based on the effect that I hear.
Lastly, my pair of HSU have been pretty much everywhere in the room including perched up on table tops; presently they’re against the left and right walls, tight up and with one behind the front plane of the speakers and the other closer to the listening position.

It would be cool to hear from people using subs with inbuilt room equalization to see just how successfully they integrate in a 2+2 setup.

Cheers!
@rooze ,
Well, there is always Vandersteen.
The new Sub 3 has a built in equalizer. 
BTW, I own both the Hsu and Vandy subs (2wq) for 2 systems, and the Vandersteen subs are by far more subtle and better integrated than I can get with the Hsu's. 
Don't get me wrong, I like the Hsu's, but when it comes down to seamless integration, the Vandy's have it hands down.
Bob