Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts

I’m curious to know what your mains are and whether or not you run them full range.

Mains are Talon Khorus X. Not that it matters. Which I seriously doubt that it does matter, given the range of speakers and situations its been reported to work beautifully with. I mean Tim has electrostats. So case closed.

Oh and yeah, full range. If you understand the way you seem to think you do then you would know the whole idea is more low bass source locations. So it would be counterproductive to that goal to eliminate the two mains from helping with that. Indeed, as it turns out, every time I do something that improves the response of the mains (like speaker cables) the improvement is seamless including well into the low bass. This should not be news since its exactly what Duke and everyone else is saying.

Well, dang, let me clarify that. Everyone else means everyone else who has a clue. Which you can only have by actually building, or buying, and then setting up and listening. Everyone else emphatically excludes the yammering nabobs posting so much about which they know so little.

Also, you make no reference to sub quality, only quantity. Are you saying that 4 cheapish subs can produce tight, articulate and extended bass, or is there a requisite standard or level of quality and if so, can you suggest a make/model that you see as the entry point for a successful distributed sub system.

Of course sub quality matters. Duh. Should go without saying. Except, on the other hand: audiophiles! Nothing can ever go without saying. Only group of people in the world to know everything and nothing, simultaneously.

While working on mine Duke was very careful not to recommend or comment on anything too specific. The minute I told him what I had ordered however he immediately said mine will kick butt on his. He knew it was the same Dayton amps, same size drivers, very similar speaker boxes, only Morel drivers with more powerful magnet and voice coil. So yeah quality matters. Duh.

But that being said, based on everything I have seen I would have to say that no single sub no matter how awesome or powerful or how perfectly EQ-able will ever touch my 5. Just no way. Duke had a customer with mega sub budget actually compare and decide the same. Most incredible of all was one guy with four speakers, just ordinary biggish bookshelf type speakers, ask how to use them best. My answer was put two facing the corners with a pillow over the tweeters, in other words use them like subs. Much to my surprise the guy actually did this, and then reported back how surprised he was at the bass extending deeper, smoother, and more cleanly than ever before. Which did not surprise me at all. Because quantity beats quality. Which is not to say quality does not matter at all. Only that in this particular case quantity matters so much more that more often than not four of anything will beat one of anything, at least around anywhere near the same total cost. Which for reference Duke’s customer thought the $3k Swarm was better than anything he heard up to ten times the price.

EQ is a lame idea, DSP or otherwise. But no more lame than taking advice from a bunch of guys with absolutely zero idea what they’re talking about. Which is every single post so far!

Hello @millercarbon,

We have gotten to the unfortunate part of a discussion where you assert knowledge of your own little in evidence and denigrate that of others leaving me no choice but to out you.

I used to work in motion picture equipment industry, including design, installation and set up of some of the best sounding motion picture audio gear in the world. I also make my own loudspeakers and do my own room EQ.

My views are pretty much the same as those posted by JL Audio, though as I posted elsewhere, I disagree with them in some nuanced ways:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/me-vs-jl-audio-an-open-discussion?highlight=me%2Bvs%2Bjl%2Bau...

The problem you’re having rooze, and the mistake you’re making, is the same one I made and everyone makes and that’s following the conventional wisdom, because the conventional wisdom is WRONG! The conventional wisdom is based on the idea that because sound is waves and bass is waves then bass must be the same as midrange and treble. When its not.

That’s not the conventional wisdom, and not what I’ve seen anyone propose. The general solution, as written by and accepted by professional acousticians and installers, for getting deep bass in a room with moderate spend is bass traps + EQ.


http://ethanwiner.com/basstrap_myths.htm


My views and recommendations are also largely in line with what GIK Acoustics would recommend, so please, contact them directly and ask.

https://www.gikacoustics.com/

If you have lots of room, time and money, get more subs, and a custom room. Otherwise, I stand by my advice of using a DSP based solution along with appropriate room treatment and question your judgement and qualifications.

Best,

Erik

Sorry. Remind me again, about your experience setting up and using your distributed bass array?

I am not familiar with the JL subs room correction so I can't comment on what it will do or not do, but some general thoughts:

at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.

This suggests to me that your subs perhaps are crossed over too high?   How big is your room out of interest?

If I am not mistaken, the SC-3 dips pretty low (40Hz -db quick check?). Probably want to cross over at about 50Hz for music (+/- 5 hz), and get the volume matching right (and phase).  50Hz is about 7 meters, so 180 degrees phase is 3.5 meters (needed when making a bass array - or inverted audio inputs/outputs/speakers).

At that frequency, you should not have localization impacting sound-stage perception. Not sure how steep your sub cut-off is. They are usually fairly steep, so higher frequencies above the cross-over should not be an issue.

In terms of a bass-array, yes they are great. They are even greater when you invest $100 in a microphone to let your tune the bass-array across your listening position. If you have phase adjust (not just 0/180) you can do some virtual movement  (and digital delay can do more).

 I also make my own loudspeakers 

which if i recall correctly has been heavily ridiculed by the experts on diyaudio.