2. tech-talk
  3. 135904-110926

Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Now on the car topic. The reason they sound the way they do is because of the pressure they are able to create because of the small space. Simple Q & A that can be tackled by any auto audio guy. If folks want to put their spin on it, that's up to them but it will end back at the same place. Your listening to materials, vibration and pressure.

So lets get to the Talk & Walk on this topic briefly. When talking about car stereos and the way they work, how many of you have stripped the car down to the frame and then built it back up again for sound reasons? Some of you probably have, but if not you'd be surprised about what you can learn about car sound from taking it all the way down to the frame and building it back up.

To answer the suspension question, we tested our cars by listening and testing them while sitting on their wheels and also jacking them up off the wheels. Having them resting on their wheels sounds mushy (rubbery) as compared to coupling them to the floor and lifts. Raising them also made them far more tunable.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

jafant's avatar
jafant
19,990 posts
 
Good to see you here -MG.
As always, very insightful and interesting thread. Can be speak about your different tuning rooms and the gear contained within each space?
I want to learn more about the electronics and cabling that you musical ears enjoy.
Happy Listening!
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
Note to self: if cars were mounted on rubber tires only it would be one helluva bumpy ride. 🚗
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,521 posts
 
Also car speakers are typically surface mounted which limits ability to do imaging the way home setups can.  Not to mention the tweeters mounted far away from the woofs which totally eliminates any chance of decent imaging.  Then the panels and such they are mounted in often tend to vibrate and muck up the sound to some extent. Then there is the background noise thing. Ability to pressurize a smaller space is the one thing car audio has going for it over home.

I recently leased an Acura TLX with their ELS sound system. Best sounding I’ve heard in a car in a while. Seems to have a handle on the issues including using active noise cancellation. Apple play with a high res source sets a pretty decent bar. Last car was a Toyota Avalon with JBL sound system. That was way more prone to the usual car audio acoustic vices.


michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Jafant, thanks!! Good to see you as well.

My Vegas Strip location (where I’ve set up my writing room) has two suites. One upstairs apartment and one down stairs. There’s a system in the writing room and than the main listening area. The downstairs apartment has my wood curing area and a listening room. There’s also a gaming room in yet another space. Last year I had everything in one space with 6 listening rooms, but I felt too far away from the strip and airport. You can see everything on TuneLand but to give a breakdown of this space. The main listening area has a SAM wall behind the chair. On the back side of the wall is where I keep a big part of my equipment stored. That area has several tuning platform/shelves. On those shelves is Audio Note, Audolici, Music Hall, Creek, Magnavox, Pioneer, Sherwood, Kenwood, Superphon, Marantz, Jolida, Luxman, Rotel and more. I tune lots of equipment during the year so it comes and goes. Last year for example I had in Bricasti, Accuphase, Audio Research, Krell and again a few other brands to work on. Speakers, of course I have the Rev6, Rev60, Rev SW-15. And than my other speakers (less talked about) Viola, LOW, the 8" full range and others of mine. I also have the Reference Tonian, JBL and 4 or so other brands. I have a few other DACs, decks and tuners.

I have my cables Picasso and Bare Essence. I also have Transparent Audio, Esoteric and a couple others floating around somewhere. Oh and can’t forget the Bare Essence "White". I have all of my other goodies as well.

The main listening system has the Rev6 Combo setup with Picasso Type2 ICs and Type4 Bare Essence "White". I have a full display of my hand voiced Platforms & Rails using Brazilian Pine and Low Tone Redwood, LTR Tuning Blocks, MGA Sub amp & SW-15 sub, BP Cable Grounds. SAM and PZC acoustics, and a couple of RoomTune Squares. I’m also using my Mini Wall Tuning Blocks (Pretty cool little guys), Space Cones, MTD’s. So as you can tell my system is mainly a variable musical instrument.

what about the equipment?

Well because my system is a tuning tool I can put in an amplifier, my trusty Magnavox players and I’m off to the races. For the sake of the other thread I’m doing here, I’ve bought several amps so I can do the tune from scratch using basic electronics. 3 days ago I got in another Pioneer sx-3400 and popped it into the system. BTW for my reference tube gear I use Audolici from Portugal. The A25M is the MG Version. I also have the AVP-01 and AP-01 preamps.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

More to discover