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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
10,109 posts
 

Having owned a speaker utilizing the EMIM/EMIT drivers Elizabeth likes (the Infinity RS-1b), Magneplanars (Tympani T-I, T-Id, and currently T-IVa), and ESL’s (currently original QUADS, aka 57’s), there is a contemporary loudspeaker I suggest auditioning that provides advantages of them all and then some---the Eminent Technology LFT-8b.

A better speaker over-all imo than the RS-1b (I sold my pair back to Brooks Berdan), low sensitivity/efficiency like Maggies but at the more tube-amp friendly nominal impedance of 8 ohms (the magnetic-planar m/t drivers themselves are 11 ohms, for those bi-amping. A pair of Atma-Sphere M60 amps would be great with them), fairly low bass response from the sealed 8" dynamic woofer, higher maximum SPL capability than many ESL’s (certainly the QUADS), very low coloration and high timbral accuracy, high transparency (distortion levels approaching that of ESL’s), easy to integrate into a room. All for $2499/pr, barely more than the Maggie MG1.7i, less than half the price of the MG3.7i. The best kept secret in hi-fi.

sbank's avatar
sbank
3,382 posts
 
@hombre If you are interested in considering planars, I'd encourage you to expand your shopping list a bit and add Sound Lab, Sanders and Analysis Audio for audition. 
I am biased as a Sound Lab owner, but after having owned Quads and spent much time with many Maggies and listened a few times to the others, I think it would be worth your while. 
FWIW, I agree that in general you do need a pretty beefy amp with most of these guys. I am a bit surprised by @elizabeth 's comment that her 20.7s are easy to drive. Maybe they have been improved in this regard, but the 20.5 and 20.1s I'm more familiar with both benefit from plenty of power and current, and relatively suffer without them. I know Sound Lab has also gone to great lengths to make their newer models easier to drive than my vintage thirsty, hungry A3s. If budget is an issue, Sanders makes the Magnetech amps designed specifically for electrostatics, and they provide pretty great value/$ in that regard. Cheers,
Spencer
hombre
87 posts
 
I just read a white paper written by a Roger Sanders! Is this the same Sanders you mention? The paper gives a very good explanation of why most amps won’t work with ESL’s. He says that ESL’s act as a capacitor while conventional speakers act like a resistor.This means that the highly reactive load they present to the amp tends to make most amplifiers unstable because they send electrical current back to the amp unlike conventional speakers which "use up" the electrical current by converting it to heat.And he says watts per channel don't mean anything with ESL's because they don't operate on watts, they operate on voltage.Also I’m pretty sure magnaplanars also present a difficult load.Are Sound Lab speakers more like maggies or ESL’s?
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Elizabeth, you rock Girl!!!

Hombre

I think you've landed on some great folks to help you on your quest! This thread in particular was made so we as a community can get to that practical experience so many of the posters here are able to supply based on their actual doing of the process. That's golden in my book and does the hobby (bdp would rightly correct me saying lifestyle) up righteously. The "walkers" here you will find have some awesome collective experience. It's not that any always agree but the fact that these guys & gals are able to share beyond quoting someone else or true or false possible "what if" theories.

I think this thread has taken on the meaning it was meant to have. My thought is, a forum like what is happening here on Agon has more value than even an audiophile magazine when the community is harnessed and each is able to share at a "doing" level. This doesn't mean that any of us will stick to our, for now, opinions forever. But, what it does is gives real accounts based on real life conditions, both historically and modern innovations.

Reading the last three post Elizabeth, bdp24 and sbank wrote, you can just see the experience dripping off their words. To me this is what this is about. As a collective we can do so much more.

this is rich!

mg

sbank's avatar
sbank
3,382 posts
 
@hombre Yes, same Roger Sanders. 
Sound Labs, which are full ESLs (most models)' are also led by a Roger, Dr. Roger West. He's brilliant imho. Read his suggestions about how set up & room treatment should be approached when using his (and perhaps others) ESLS. Cheers,
Spencer 
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