The age comment was a dig at myself BTW just in case I invoke the ire of a million baby boomer audiophiles... |
I don't think Grand Prix Audio has made themselves rich out of designing the Direct Drive Monaco turntable at 20K.
There is no way in hell that any of the Japanese companies will make any high end turntables for such little perceived returns.
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Downunder: Yes, I agree. However, now I'm talking about a small operator who buys 2nd hand (or new) SL1200s, pulls them apart and re-births them as a top flight deck with a different arm, plinth, power supply etc. Hello Sound HiFi UK! Are you listening? Take the next step.
As for the GP audio. Nice. Tad overpriced. Yet, for the first 'X' amount of units, they won't make much moola.
BTW- I'm glad to see you chimed-in 'DOWNUNDER'. Could you get some comments onto the other thread I have started? It's about 12" SME arms. It would be great to hear from someone who is into rock/alernative. How does a SME 12" go with that style of music? |
Dsa - not sure I can add any value to the SME thread.
I own the Ortofon AS-309 12 inch arm. Sounds fine with rock/alternative however. Just been playing some new Morrissey & Bloody Beetroots on it.
Who said SPU's can't rock!! |
Dsa, You wrote, "I'm talking about a small operator who buys 2nd hand (or new) SL1200s, pulls them apart and re-births them as a top flight deck with a different arm, plinth, power supply etc." By the time they did that, why bother with the SL1200 at all? And you left out the element that makes the biggest difference between, say, an SP10 Mk2 and an SL1200 - the motor. Fact is it would be best to start with a clean sheet, if you want to transcend the SL1200 by a wide margin, and then you are inevitably going to be the in Grand Prix Monaco price category. The SL1200 is capable of fine performance and will probably have to do for those who insist on buying new gear. By the way, if the business you specifically named were to get into the SL1200 upgrade game, the resulting modifications would probably cost enough to pay for an excellent SP10 Mk2. I think they already have a $400 bearing upgrade available, or so I have read. |
Downunder: That's just the sort of comments I'm looking for! Put it up there. There many jazz, Weavers and 'Famous Blue Raincoat' lovers out there and I read their comments all the time. However, what about the music lovers who dig a massive bass-line, big drums and huge dynamics?
Some arms are good on acoustic music, voice etc but come undone when called upon to 'get up and boogie'. For example, pace, rhythm and timing can be lost in transit across the grooves. Other arms are good on the highs and mids, but have little or flabby bass- some unitpivots fall in this camp. Full orchestral music is perhaps the best test for any rig, but playing dance, rock and alternative music well is also desired in an arm. I want an arm that can do both, and do it well.
Lewm: OK- a good SP-10 goes for about $1,000 to $1,500. Then you add a plinth ($400-$2,000 ish), then an arm ($300 to $5,000), renovation work on caps, bearing oil, etc etc ($300 to who knows where) Get my drift? That SP-10 (with, granted, a u-beaut motor) is now getting into high-end price territory.
Now, buy a second hand SL1200 MK2 ($500 ish, it can be beaten up- who cares?). Remove the motor and electronics, build a plinth, build the outboard PSU, sell with provision to carry a Rega (that would encompass the Origin Live models too) and 9" SMEs. The customer could also specify a 12" arm.
It could be done on an exchange basis. (this is how the Origin Live started with their RB250/300 arms mods) You provide the SL1200, a cool small operator could do the work and give you back a bloody good TT. Alternatively, they sell the lot as a kit for OS customers or the DIYers.
I reckon the right operator with the right connections could offer the above for about $1,000 complete. Nothing fancy. Not high-end. Yet, it would blow a Rega P3 or a low/mid priced Thorens and other entry level TTs into the weeds!
There are millions of SL1200s out there just waiting.... |
I don't know if it was stated above but the SL-1000 was the SP-10MKII with the base, dustcover and arm included. |
I suggest u look up turntable dot it or google reed tonearm. The manufacturer of reed tonearm do produce tonearm pod/ base or turret . It's make of certain matrixes, cork and stainless steel. Beautiful and not too expensive . From my friends experiment with Garrard 401, it's seems isolated base is the way to go. I hve not set up mine on a Garrard 301 yet while waiting for Mark Kelly psu and finally decide to build a birch ply base even though I would prefer a slate plinth which unfortunately is difficult to come by in my country . Buying a slate plinth with shipping due to it's weight wld be pretty expensive |
Dear Audioblazer, You wrote, "From my friends experiment with Garrard 401, it's seems isolated base is the way to go." Can you tell me/us just what experiment your friend conducted? I also wonder how it is possible to generalize from any one turntable, especially one that is rather esoteric, to all turntables on a subject such as this.
By the way, have you had any recent communication from Mark on his PSU? I too am awaiting a Kelly supply, for my Lenco in this case. |
No communication since 1 mail that project is starting. However from wikispace it's seems there is a delay from April deadline. I heard a Garrard 401 not optimumly set up with isolated tonearm and it was exciting and full of prat. That's why I decided to experiment with a properly refurbished Garrard 301, purchased a reed turret , 12" reed 2p , ortofon a90 and dynavector x-1vs , mark Kelly psu. Let's see whether it will outperform my raven ac3 with raven 10.5 tonearm. Suspect it will be great for rock and classical music. Yes, listening to 1 set up is not conclusive but looking at stefano set and how da Vinci turntable is designed with isolated tonearm, I decided to take the route. Another reference go to promitheusaudio dot com |
There are megabuck turntables that do it either way, tonearm on outboard pod vs tonearm very firmly associated with the bearing/platter. Probably it works either way, if the design is done properly. As I stated several times, my main beef with a separate pod is the possibility that a careless bump will destroy the alignment. That's on the practical level. Then too on the theoretical level, I like the idea of rigidity of the connection between tonearm/platter via the arm mount and bearing.
Probably I should query Mark on the controller. |
I agree with Lew regarding rigidity of connection between cartridge/tonearm and the platter/record. Considering the small margin for error in proper cartridge set up, I just don't see how any lack of absolute coupling between them could be beneficial. And inserting any sort of suspension between the cartridge and headshell seems it would be worse, but I know there are some who advocate this.
One friend has a Garrard 401 mounted in a massive (solid) maple plinth with the arm(s) mounted outboard on tall, massive brass pods. Possibly they are heavy enough not to move but there is still the issue of exact positioning. I will admit his set up sounds very good. But could it be better with a direct coupled mounting? |
Just to end this idle discussion, try taking a SP10 motor and platter unit out of its housing and run it with no plinth, and no platter. It will not work at all. This is very close to the condition that Raul mentions, and is extremely ill advised.
OMA has a new system for the SP10, with the motor control boards located in a separate enclosure, and the motor and platter securely anchored to a 210 pound slate plinth. This is the right way to do it.
Disclosure- We are OMA.
Jonathan |
To be fair, I don't think Raul ever advocated running the SP10 with no platter. As you suggest, the motor will go nuts with no platter. I agree with you on your solution; Raul has another way. |
I believe there is much confusion about Raul's table, possibly due to his non-English native language, although I think he communicates quite well.
I attempted to include a link to a photo of his SP-10 but cannot figure out how to do so. It is a wood frame which surrounds the motor unit and extends to one side to provide a mounting area for the arm. In answer to the OP, this is a secured fixture between the mounting for the motor/platter casing and the arm base. It is NOT a separate arm pod so that is not what he is recommending as an alternative. His solution is only this minimal frame (possibly 3/4" thick) to hold and position the arm, plus three suspension feet underneath the motor pan, and not a more massive plinth as most others have constructed.
If I may be allowed to continue speaking for Raul, his position is that a high mass plinth is not necessary for good performance with an SP-10 Mk 2. I have been using a similar mounting for my Mk 2A for over a year with pleasing results. Whether this is inferior, as good as, or better than a more massive plinth I cannot say -- I haven't tried one yet.
But two discussions have developed within this thread: comments on separate arm pods as ask in the OP, and the question of desirable plinth mass, now with an even further diversion by Weisselk in suggesting the removal of the controls and electronics outboard with only the motor/platter attached to the plinth (whereby I assume he eliminates the cast mounting frame for the motor, electronics, and switches). Hopefully all this discussion may be useful to the OP and he/she is still reading after all this time. ;-) |
Tim, Your description of Raul's table is exactly as I once envisioned it. I got the impression at the top of this thread that I was not quite correct. Anyway, it's water under the bridge, or a tonearm over a turntable, or something.
One "secret" of the success of Raul's approach may be that he has those Audio Technica feet placed under the chassis of the SP10 itself, not supporting the plywood per se. |
Nice old thread, now a fantasy arround the new deck from technics is reallity. Not an sp 10 mk4 unfortunately, we will see...
I'm here to answer about this plinth option for SP-10:
http://www.acoustand.co.uk/pages/customers-acoustand-plinths-turntables
Anyone familiar with Acoustand's products?
The craziest thing is their custom SP-10 plinth ala Kenwood Plinth (pictures on their website) And they can do whatever customer dream plinth by request. |
The plinths from Acoustand look nice, would be great if someone had a way to test so we know performance.
The Acoustand website does not mention price, what do they sell for and are they shipped from UK? |
Albert, their price is reasonable and plinth maker Lee Grage respond quickly on email. For example their kenwood style plinth for sp10 cost £400. Lee own his own workshop and he can make any custom plinth.
I got some info from Lee about his obsidian style plinths:
"We are offering a premium model version of this plinth, it's the same design but is 36mm thicker than standard and has a premium quality high gloss piano lacquer finish, this is a proper perfectly flat like glass lacquer and looks wonderful. It will also be available with more exotic veneers like Brazilian rosewood or Brazilian mahogany, bubinga if our supplier can supply us, just about any veneer is available. It will also be a little deeper with the top panel back bar being 1/2" thicker, it's substantially better." |
Any idea about internal construction? Is it available with Panzerholz or other heavy non resonant materials?
I know shipping becomes an issue with Panzerholz and Slate but would be a nice option if they offered. They are attractive and I appreciate their designs |
That's what Mr. Lee Drage (Acoustand Audio) told me: "We use mainly hardwood plywood which has proved excellent for the sp10 as it doesn't require a massive plinth it is so well engineered, and the sizes are 45.5 deep by 53 cm wide, approx height is 4" 10cm". |
I'm in the middle of a new plinth for my
Victor TT101 DD and thought Id mention my primary material is Bamboo ply.
Very solid, heavy, and stable with inner and outer stacked layers at 90 deg to each other.
It can be hard on cutters to machine and wears carbide faster than other materials I have used. There may be more than one variety on the market as this version was sourced from a cabinet shop where they use a CNC vacuum setup using double compression style cutters that leave a cut line very smooth.
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Albert, In the future they might be using panzerholz and slate for double price as the panzerholz not only expensive but virtually impossible to get in the UK. Acoustand Audio now use plywood primarily in construction. |
What type of plywood? That makes a huge difference. For example, Baltic Birch plywood is a proven good material for tt plinths, but in general such BB plinths have been massive, for idlers and DD tt's, to achieve best results. |
Lew, they use hardwood far eastern ply on regular basis or Baltic birch (for just 90 quids extra). What you can recommend for sp-10? |
