The Contour System – Directional Wiring of Audio Parts

@ausaudio
I assume this is an attempt at humor?

This is crystal-clear scientific logic.
All radio-technical measuring devices are designed taking into account the fact that the conductor is a linear element. If we assume that the conductors are nonlinear, then we have to admit that absolutely everything we know about electricity is false, since all our knowledge about it is based on measurements.

Therefore, there is not even a question whether it is possible to measure the non-linearity of the conductor or not. This cannot be done by definition if you want to stay within the laws of Electronic Engineering.

Anton, You are new so let me explain. There's only a very small number of productive, thinking, sentient people here. There is a relatively larger number of these who come and read (lurkers) but seldom if ever contribute. The reason they do not contribute is they run into all these people who do nothing but mess things up. Some of them deliberately, some through no fault of their own. They just don't get it. But rather than try and understand they argue and joke and mess things up. It is just what they do. 

That is what is going on here. You are doing good work. Frankly you are doing some of the best work that has been posted here in a very long time. Maybe ever. Who knows?  

But look, your observation about "a certain direct message to the soul" is genius. So genius I quoted it at length. Only look what happened- right over their heads! 

Now you are applying the same logic and coming up with even better conclusions: 

If we assume that the conductors are nonlinear, then we have to admit that absolutely everything we know about electricity is false, since all our knowledge about it is based on measurements

. More genius that not only will no one get, but to the extent they do will only argue with it. Well, I get it. There's a few lurkers I can guarantee she, er I mean they will get it too.   

There was a post I put up on April 1st of last year you may find interesting. Nowhere near as tightly reasoned but right down the same track. Yeah, posted April Fool's Day, knew nobody would get it anyway. Bet you do though.   https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/april-fool-s


Really appreciate everything you're doing. Keep it up!

This is crystal-clear scientific logic.
All radio-technical measuring devices are designed taking into account the fact that the conductor is a linear element. If we assume that the conductors are nonlinear, then we have to admit that absolutely everything we know about electricity is false, since all our knowledge about it is based on measurements.

Unfortunately someone has presented you with false knowledge. Those familiar with precision measurements and precision equipment are well aware of the impact of wires on measurement and regularly compensate for them. If they did not, no RF measurement would be accurate. There are enough references in the physical world, to act as calibration sources for something even as simple as wire.

Much of our knowledge far transcends measurements, which only seek to validate physical theories, not create them on their own. There is much to learn still, at the extremes, but we are not talking about the extremes in this hobby.

Thanks for your kind words of support, millercarbon!

@millercarbon
As unlikely as it sounds there really may be a point where its more feeling than hearing.

You know, I came to the same conclusion. A person feels audio anomalies with some "sixth sense", but not with hearing. Otherwise, audiophile puzzle doesn't add up.

@ausaudio
Unfortunately someone has presented you with false knowledge. Those familiar with precision measurements and precision equipment are well aware of the impact of wires on measurement and regularly compensate for them. If they did not, no RF measurement would be accurate. There are enough references in the physical world, to act as calibration sources for something even as simple as wire.

ausaudio, you didn’t fully understand the post you quoted. Circuit design solutions for calibration of measuring devices also rely on the fact that the conductors inside the devices are linear. Think about it.

I doubt he understands anything, fully or otherwise. Your description was perfectly clear and irrefutably logical.

The part about feeling goes with the way you describe cassettes or old 78s. The one time I heard a 78 on a gramophone was some years ago but I still remember the feeling. In audiophile terms the sound was just as crappy as you would expect. But the way I have tried to describe it, it is like our systems when they are really good create the illusion of the singer being there in front of us in the room. When we do this with analog in particular the illusion can be tingly-real. With the gramophone it is more like the singer is in there. Listening to it is like, there's a person somewhere in there singing, and I'm hearing it through this metal and stuff. But she's in there!

Or if you ever did the can with string thing as a kid, you can totally tell it is a real person and not a recording on the other end. The old telephone calls were like that too. Not this cell phone BS we have today.  

Very hard to explain in terms of anything we can measure. Very easy to understand in terms of things we know and feel. Another example I like to use, if you see a trout in a brook the image of the fish is distorted by the water, by the waves, by sunlight glint and glare off the water, silt and whatever else might be in the water, but yet with all of that you know for sure you are looking at a trout. A real live trout.

As opposed to if you take a picture or video of a trout, and look at it the same way, there is no doubt which is which. The video however good is never gonna be confused with the fish. Probably no amount of pixel or wavelength counting will ever figure this out, but we do it with ease.

Something is going on, whether it is with tubes needles or the direction of wires or whatever, something somehow improves or shortens the link, the connection between things. Between us and them. Sorry, but it really is hard not to get metaphysical about it.

@ausaudio....good point...;) 👍

@millercarbon
The one time I heard a 78 on a gramophone was some years ago but I still remember the feeling.... With the gramophone it is more like the singer is in there. Listening to it is like, there's a person somewhere in there singing, and I'm hearing it through this metal and stuff. But she's in there!

I agree 100%. Successful 78 recordings sound extremely realistic on the gramophone, and I feel that no electrical system can so accurately copy the effect of a live presence during a performance as a mechanical gramophone. In this paradoxical situation, again, our misunderstanding of the properties of electricity and human perception can be traced.

Or if you ever did the can with string thing as a kid, you can totally tell it is a real person and not a recording on the other end. The old telephone calls were like that too. Not this cell phone BS we have today.  

When using old dial phones, it was possible to evaluate the sound of audio systems and determine which wire sounds better. This is despite the fact that the frequency response of the telephone line was 500-3000 Hz. To me the situation is similar to that of a gramophone and suggests that the presence effect is completely independent of the frequency response.

.....with all of that you know for sure you are looking at a trout. A real live trout. As opposed to if you take a picture or video of a trout, and look at it the same way, there is no doubt which is which...

Again, I agree with you. In my experience, visual perception determines whether an object is alive or inanimate by some principle similar to hearing. I spent several years researching the distinctive features of b/w analog photography which to me is by far more live than modern digital one, and found out a lot of interesting things. the main one is the lens elements and even simple glasses, have directivity.

The window glasses directivity can also be used in audio. After you choose the position of the window glass and fix it so as the picture outside the window is closest to the live one, then the sound of the system becomes more lively too, especially if the system is located next to the window. All our feelings are somehow connected. And probably there is no escape from metaphysics here.

The glass directionality experiment is easy to perform by looking in different ways through any little peace of glass.

In fact, the effect of gravity on the electrons flowing in the wire is also a huge factor on sound. I can hear the difference like day and night.

My setup on the moon sounds so much better since gravity is less. I had to also carry my own audiophile air there for the experiment since I could not have heard anything in a vacuum. It was at perfect nitrogen and oxygen concentrations for perfect sound.

However, I am sure there are members here whose ears are so sensitive they can even hear in a vacuum. Please let me know so we can plan an expedition together to a planet or an asteroid whose gravity is much less 🤣

In fact, I hear that music sounds better outside the solar system.  I need to investigate :-)

To me the situation is similar to that of a gramophone and suggests that the presence effect is completely independent of the frequency response.

Fascinating ideas and thread...

I am sure that Anton is on the right track...

Just a word about my own experience and listenings experiments in acoustic...

We dont listen first to frequency like a mic does with a tested frequency response...

We have 2 ears which are very different fom one anther , and i used this in my last acoustical device....

We listen not first to some frequency like assume those who use an electronic equalizer and a mic with a tested response frequency for a PRECISE ARTIFICIAL location...

We listen to some multi dimensional complex different wavefronts, a bunch of frequencies with a "relatively" large bandwidth,( like the voice timbre of a singer) coming from the tweeter, the bass drivers, and from early and late reflections in a PRECISE NATURAL time frame...

Human ears evoluted to locate real sound like voices in space and human timbre recognition is key to social relation...

I used this fact creating my H.M.E. (Helmoltz mechanical equalizer): imagine a snake with head and tail...

The HEAD begins a few centimeters from the tweeter of one of my speakers with 2 pipes near the tweeter and 2 bottles near the port hole; then going to my left on the first reflection point with 6 pipes; then to my rear with the MAIN BODY of the snake, 8 pipes ,one 8 feet high; and then goes to the second reflection point to my right, with 6 pipes and finally ends at the TAIL, with 3 pipes near the bass driver of this speaker, with one bottle near the port hole....Asymmetric distribution of pipes and bottles and differences between them are very important at the head and tail....


Then asymetrical "DIRECTIVITY" of the wavefronts coming from each speakers and their reflections in the room is paramount factor to recreate 3 dimensionality of the music with my H.M.E. ....All this is related to the serious studies about thresholds in timing perceptions experiments of some complementary acoustical factors like LEV and ASW....

Audio is acoustic experience first....

I think that analog is more resistant to negative impact of a lack in acoustic control.... This is the reason why analog appear superior to digital....Time is the most important factor in acoustic, and timing of bits is mathematically equivalent but not acoustically equal to the real timing of frontwaves for the 2 ears... We need good concrete acoustical settings to recreate the original acoustic live event where choices made by recording engineer are trade-off choices altering the timbre original  experience for example.... The information "cues" in the recorded cd or vinyl need to be activated in a room or in space... If  good acoustical controls  are not there  in our room the analog sound is more resistant in a destructive acoustical environment or in an not enough controlled one...

I agree 100%. Successful 78 recordings sound extremely realistic on the gramophone, and I feel that no electrical system can so accurately copy the effect of a live presence during a performance as a mechanical gramophone. In this paradoxical situation, again, our misunderstanding of the properties of electricity and human perception can be traced.

Or if you ever did the can with string thing as a kid, you can totally tell it is a real person and not a recording on the other end. The old telephone calls were like that too. Not this cell phone BS we have today.  

Well, how does one even respond to something like this?  Sort of shoots the whole thread in the foot.

Hate to break it to you, but phone lines have started to be digitized in the early 70s, and by 80, 40+ years ago, your phone call almost definitely passed through an ADC and DAC. 

@ausaudio
Hate to break it to you, but phone lines have started to be digitized in the early 70s, and by 80, 40+ years ago, your phone call almost definitely passed through an ADC and DAC.

Ausaudio, maybe it was in the USA, but I'm from Russia. Our first digital telephone stations appeared in the 1990s, and then only in large cities. In St. Petersburg (5 million people) back in 2000, some stations did not understand the tone set, that is, they were still relay, purely analog.

But it's not about the dates, of course, but what I wrote, it's true. I had a favorite "audiophile" rotary dial Siemens phone with a carbon microphone, my friend had the same one, so I called him up and evaluated the changes in the liveliness and fullness of the sound of his system on the phone. Of course, it was not possible to evaluate everything, but in general it was clear what was what. Now with digital and even more so with mobile communication, this is simply impossible.

Ausaudio, maybe it was in the USA, but I'm from Russia. Our first digital telephone stations appeared in the 1990s, and then only in large cities. In St. Petersburg (5 million people) back in 2000, some stations did not understand the tone set, that is, they were still relay, purely analog.

The person who posted that comment on telephones was from the USA.


You are doing nothing more than romanticizing a bygone era. Old analog PSTN was pretty awful, almost all aspects of it. Low sensitivity microphone, low bandwidth, very low signal to noise.  Modern communications, especially some of the Internet based voice platforms are so far ahead in voice quality a comparison is laughable.


You were evaluating the liveliness and "fullness" from 300Hz - 3000Hz.  Think about what you are implying.  You are honestly comparing that to what is typically 50Hz - 7KHz, often with much better SNR, if not even wider bandwidth? 

If people have qualms with the concept of directivity, I suggest they turn their fuses by 180 degrees. If they can‘t hear a difference, two options are available:

1. get better equipment
2. get better ears

@ausaudio
The person who posted that comment on telephones was from the USA.

I guess he's old enough to know what the U.S. analog phone line sounded like.

You are doing nothing more than romanticizing a bygone era.

There is a bit of romance, of course, the grass was greener, the girls were younger )). But no more than that.

Old analog PSTN was pretty awful, almost all aspects of it. Low sensitivity microphone, low bandwidth, very low signal to noise. Modern communications, especially some of the Internet based voice platforms are so far ahead in voice quality a comparison is laughable. You were evaluating the liveliness and "fullness" from 300Hz - 3000Hz. Think about what you are implying. You are honestly comparing that to what is typically 50Hz - 7KHz, often with much better SNR, if not even wider bandwidth?

Yes I am. I see that you can't believe that a less technically advanced device can sound better. I guess all the cables sound the same to you and have no direction, right?

@anton_stepichev,

Hihi, you‘re dead on the money and I am loving it....

What a great read, breath of fresh air.

This guy thinks like a "Left Handed Master Mechanic"

Rare sort of bird..

Thank you OP for your open minded approach to a long over due LOOK at WHY?..

I’ve always said the same thing. A person can call you on the phone 50 years sense the last time you spoke, amazingly you instantly recall his or her voice... THAT ability is DEAD on in regards to the way a construct can sound.
MEASURE THAT.. You can’t. It is directly associated with a FEELING a true 6th sense.. Honestly I have a 7th sense about people too.. The reason I like animals.. They do not lie..

I personally look at the wire and you can SEE the way the material is drawn through the different tool dies, you can SEE the direction.. Tool marks don’t lie either.. Peoples good or BAD hearing might not always hear a difference, but after building a valve amp (per se)
and sticking to the rules of "LOOKING" at the wire being used, it can make a heck of a difference..

James B. of Ampizilla, only drew wire off the spool in ONE direction AFTER he looked at it under a microscope..

He is also the guy that WELDED in his power cables and believed in cold fusion weld. Solder was an afterthought..

50 years ago.....50 YEARS AGO....

THAT was a serious amp builder, Single malt didn’t hurt either
.

Regards

Single malt is directional unless you overdo it: down the hatch!

Ya know I don't drink.. The Irish in me oh my..

BUT..  15 year ago I polished off a 35 year old bottle of Tequila at my daughters wedding.. I bought it when she was born.. I still got one waiting for my son 15 years later and but it's 54-55 years old now..

He needs to marry the girl.. BEFORE I sell it for the 1000.00 I been offered.. LOL I use to like good Tequila TOO MUCH.. Beer, less than a 6 pack in my life. Wine for cooking... I'll taste it though.. I don't cook with crappy tasting wines or vinegars..

Regards