Thiel Owners

The Stereophile review of your product of interest shows an impedance vs phase curve with explanation. Low impedance, especially where phase angle changes quickly represents difficulty. The rule of double power at 4 from 8 ohms and at least triple of 8 at 2 ohms is less important with larger amps where you demand less of its capability. And rules are made to be broken; the differences between rooms and users is immense. And the difference between how amps respond to the first watt and under full load is immense. So, there's a lot to be said for commonly shared wisdom. Traditionally a great dealer added value to this matching equation. The amps regularly mentioned on this forum have a lot going for them because knowledgeable users have chosen them from myriad competitors.

tom

Thanks

George

Seems like an amp list might be heavily biased to simple measurements, and it’s tough to meaningfully measure either speaker or amp, never mind their interaction. Most Thiel models drop below 3 ohms over part of the audioband but what can you say about how phase angle confounds that? Might be even worse with amp measurements. And to predict the interaction from measurements? Good luck!

I drove my CS1.6s with an Ayre AX-7e, 60 W into 8 ohms, doubling into 4. The 1.6 impedance drops to about 3 ohms over part of the audio band. AX-7 has 66 1 dB steps on the volume control. I usually listened at about 30, maybe low 40s if I had the house to myself and wanted to rock out (my room is 18 x 19 with a vaulted ceiling and two large openings on the rear wall). Much louder than that and it became painfully loud. I found out later, when I switched to the low efficiency Vandy 2, that my combo of amp and source would result in clipping starting at about 45 on the volume control. That little amp had plenty of balls to drive the “low” impedance Thiels.

Yes, some Thiels are tough loads. The CS5 comes to mind, dropping to about 2 ohms in the low bass and even lower where musical content peters out. So, extra care is probably a good idea for some models. But most any amp that is comfortable at 4 ohms can probably adequately drive most Thiels. 

The extra headroom from more power is certainly audible and desirable but less so, IMO, than the SQ from a superb amp regardless of its measurements. As it says it Thiel’s manuals, most users will be happier with a great 100 W amp than a mediocre 200 W amp. If a list must be done, I suggest maybe categories of amps: clearly underpowered, probably adequate depending on user/room, and fully adequate. I would not dismiss out-of-hand a “mere” 100 W amp. Just look at the many reports of good results with tubes!

Beetle - you and everyone else here has solved the Thiel Amp problem or you wouldn't love Thiel speakers. Indeed a high sound quality amp used within its comfort zone produces good music.

The problem introduced by amp-swapping is that there are many amps which don't produce good music when driving Thiel's low impedance load. Ask all those experts who say that Thiels are harsh, anemic, spikey, boomy, glarry, bright and so forth. You have a valid point. Specs aren't likely to tell what you need to know because amp specs show an extremely limited picture of the amp's interior workings.

As a broad generalization, Thiel speakers present low impedance, resistive load characteristics and many audiophile amps got better over the years in driving such loads. The brands presented here as successes are good bets.

Here's part of a note from a long-time Lexington Thiel insider:
Equipment he remembers from Nandino (Lex address):
" Levinson Transport/Dac Sonic Frontiers gold faceplate 2 chassis preamp, Levinson - Krell - Bryston Amps, when Dave Gordon was there you used some Audio Research.
Straightwire, Wireworld, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost cables  Another show did all Levinson with Kimber Select cables when they were introduced. Also you had the only pair of Kimber Black Pearl speaker cables (ones with the gel) I had ever seen or heard. I remember Jim liking the Nordost. Some dealers really liked the networked cables in Transparent or MIT (Progressive Audio). I tried Transparent but they always seemed to suck the life out of the music. I used Straightwire Maestro the longest. As far as amps I have used or heard that sounded good with Thiels: Ayre, Krell, Levinson, Threshold. I owned a B&K amp when I had CS2’s. Actually, one of the most musical sounds I ever had. When I moved to 3.6’s compared the B&K, Bryston & Levinson. The B&K was okay, the Bryston had a little better grip on bass but nothing dramatic over B&K. The Levinson brought the 3.6’s to life. I still think Krell was the best. Your comments about an amp that doubles down is definitely true if you want to hear what the speakers are capable of."

Cheers

My hearing issue is improving enough to get bits of listening in on my system (not too loud).

And on that note: I visited my pal’s place today because he currently has in the new Vivid Kiya speakers. He has many thousands of bucks worth of Nordost cabling, power conditioners etc. He switched a while back from tube amps to a Bryston 4B3. He’s happy. I find his system lost something I valued quite distinctly when he made that switch.

Anyway, listened to a bunch of tracks on the very expensive Vivids. In a nutshell: very vivid! More "transparent" sounding with super extended sounding high frequencies than I hear at home on my Thiel 2.7s.
It was super-fi in terms of clarity. I’ve heard Vivid speakers before, so this was more of the same.

But beyond that, as usual when I got home and whipped music on my Thiels powered by my big ol’ CJ 140W side tube monoblocks: wow what a difference. So much bigger, richer, so much more believable tone and organic quality. And despite that the Vivids are known for really "disappearing," which they did quite well from the low mids up, the Thiel system just whipped their butt in terms of a sense of soundstaging dimensionality, with solid images totally detached from the speakers. The same tracks with stand up bass on the Bryston driven Vivids sounded a bit boxy/speaker-bass to me, where on my Thiels, in my room, the bass just exists as a taught, natural instrument detached from the speakers top to bottom.


I missed that Thiel focus and density to the sound and imaging when I listened to the Vivids. Played some Johnny Cash on the Vivids and, while super clear, it was "hi-fi" sounding insofar as Cash’s voice just sounded artificial and a bit crispy around the edges. And the acoustic guitars, again, vivid, but bleached of tonal color. On the Thiels/CJ combo cash sounded like a human in front of me. And when the acoustic guitars came on on both sides, they sounded so much bigger, thicker and richer, and tonally it was "aaahhh...THAT’s that authentic acoustic guitar tone I was missing from the Vivids."

If anyone still had the idea that Thiels are bright, or thin or harsh sounding speakers, I can confidently declare a listen to them at my place would dispel that instantly. They are chameleons that you can make sound as you wish, via associated equipment, positioning, etc.
Just thought I’d share.