Fun reading, thanks Tom!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,616 responses Add your response
A variant of the Lincoln Effect, which I have come to use extensively, is the Background Effect. Playing music in the background, while I work, in and out of the room and while assessing technical measurements, has an interesting effect. I play the next CD up, and I play it all day, and I take mental notes of tracks with particular effects or utility. My comment is on the different kind of evaluation of the speaker under test which is occurring in that mode. There is a global assessment of appeal or resistance, of feeling-states or level and kind of involvement, which, over time, associates with speaker component evaluation and selection. It seems unlikely that those observations would come to the surface via directed, focused, evaluative listening sessions. As sdecker says, we're too focused on the minutiae and technical to allow the global to penetrate. This effect is similar to what many pros have mentioned. A new set of headphones or preamp, or mixer, etc. takes about two weeks to 'settle in'. They don't typically talk about equipment burn-in, but rather a form of psychological familiarity or knowing that allows a final accept/reject decision - to use or not to use for their technical art. I know that people on this thread have expressed this factor as their interpretation of what 'burn-in' is really about. There is truth there, along with truth of component maturation under stress. Anyhow, this week I hope to compare first vs second order, both time-aligned in the 02. (while packing and preparing to move - what a trip.) |
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I have Thiel's original Sony SCD-1, and it needs repair. Someone here noted a tech doing this work.
" Don't know about the original recommendation but Bill Thalmann would be someone I'd recommend - https://www.musictechnology.com/about-us |
@tomthiel I posted around October 2020 the name of the guy would did my mods. Audio Repairs & Modifications & Care (sublimelistening.com) He actually drove to my house to fix an issue with a mod he had done. A very honest and expert SCD-1 tech. |
If anyone is interested I will be selling a 1 month old KRELL K-300i integrated soon. It is currently playing in my Thiel CS3.7 and it is perfect match. I am going CODA separates. I had an all Benchmark stack on the CS3.7 but I think the KRELL is a little better and actually rated for 2 ohm. Whereas my AHB2 are not officially rated for 2 Ohm but does work great with the CS3.7. We are talking about tiny improvements with the KRELL, mostly in the bass region. I moved the Benchmark gear (my best gear) to the living room where I have more space and bigger plans. |
Tom - My pair has its serial numbers rubbed off, so I don't know if any changes were made later. Mine have the pins I designed for the CS2.2, which is a smooth 1/4" pin with a retention 0-ring seated in a nylon shoulder bushing. That bushing pulls out. I don't remember the bored hole size, but probably 5/16" plain bore. |
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Rob G and I spent a month+ last October/November emailing and me calling to sort out the truly messed up CS3.7 that I had bought used. He helped with speaker design diagrams and hand held me on repairs and diagnostics remotely. Along with advice on the tools to buy. If he was not available and willing to help I would have been stuck with an an expensive damaged speaker with no way to fix. The CS3.7 shipping boxes I had were like paper and no way I wanted to use them to ship them to Rob from California home. He is difficult to get a hold off but I was doing all of this during the thanksgiving holiday time period. |
Hello all - newbie here...just discovered this site last week or so and this thread several hours ago! Such passion for Thiels! Real quick cuz it’s 4am and I’m zonking-out I’m the original owner of a pair of black ash 3.6s complimented by a couple of .5s and a definitive sw and PSB center I’ve had since the late 90’s. Perfect condition and I’m looking to sell it or trade for 800 series b&ws. I know there is a place for this somewhere on the site and I plan to do this the right way (!) but I just wanted to send this out to the universe as a sort of place mark. I’m in the Bay Area and would be interested just to find out what it is I have, what the current value is. (I have no idea what I paid initially but none of it was cheap!) It’s used as mostly a home theater setup along with my 1000 watt definitive sw and 200x5 WPc Aragon amp and stageone pre pro which are the main reason for my upgrade dreams. They are great, but not even an hdmi connect! I’ll learn the forum rules and undoubtedly already broke several but as I said, this is just a stab at a bookmark before I forget or can’t navigate my way back! Apologies ahead of time gotta hit the hay! Feel free to contact any way. Yours jjw |
As someone who went from the B&W 800 series to Thiel about 10 years ago I will be the first one to tell you that you're making a bad decision. I found the Thiels to be better in every area I cared about. The B&Ws will play louder and have more (lower quality) bass. The Thiels have more defined bass, clearer, more intelligible midrange, less peaky tweeter, better imaging, more realistic soundstage, better transients, and a difficult to describe relaxing quality that may be due to their better phase behavior. |
justinjwilliams Welcome! Good to see you here. I can understand the appeal of B&W 800 series speakers. For a few years, I enjoyed the 805 monitor. Are you looking to build a complete system around the 800 loudspeakers? Regarding selling your current gear- check out U.S. Audiomart. The fee for selling over there is much less than here or eBay. Something to consider. Happy Listening! |
Hello Tom Thiel, I want to ask you about the shim or shims you added to the driver to aid in alignment. Was there a number such as .125 or .250 shim thickness added singularly or in addition to arrive at your final destination? Is there a minimum fractional distance that the brain can determine as a skewed time offset? Personally I think it is as small as 1/8 of an inch. Thanks for your insights. Tom |
I’m not sure about your shim question. I have added shims to both drivers to optimize how the Ultrasuede on 1/8" felt works. Those shims are about 2mm = 1/10" thick. But they are under all drivers, so they don’t change relative driver arrival times. Thiel’s driver arrivals are baked into the design, and they are virtually dead nuts IF your ear height is as designed = 3’ up x 8’ or more distance. If you have access to a step function generator, and you put your mic at your listening ear position, you can see that the arrival times from the drivers superimposes onto an ideal, single curve. Your ear hears that uniform arrival time as clarity, definition, integrity. Some people can hear deviations in the micro-second range. Some seem not to notice full cycle or more deviations of a millisecond or so. My present 02 project involves converting its stock conventional flat-baffle launch to a geometry where the woofer is brought forward enough for accurate time alignment. The offset required is 36mm because the woofer is rather deep. A final product might hope to use a shallower woofer for less offset and therefore fewer reflection and diffraction artifacts from the stand-off. That 36mm was estimated by reading the arrival time discontinuity, then prototyping and tweaking until the waveforms of the two drivers look like a single trace. Have I answered your question? |
Tom, Thanks for your answers and response. I need to do a time offset on a speaker that already has a physical offset. The new ribbon tweeter I thought would be nearly a drop in has its element recessed by a bout a .5 inches. Now it needs to come further forward. So I need to be creative with the added shim shape or bullnose to blend into the poured granite cabinet..Awesome tuneable external resonance control for both woofer and crossover board. Maybe difficult to maintain a good blended look. Thanks again. Tom |
I've been a "lurker” on this site since February. Started on Page 1 and am currently on Page 103, Jan 23, 2019. I've been an A'goner since 2003, about when I installed my initial all ceiling-mounted 5.2 surround sound system comprised of first version Thiel PowerPoint 1.0's and two Velodyne DD-15 subwoofers. I am 72, about Tom Thiel's age, and my audio journey started in the early 1970's. It has been fun! I intend to gradually fill in some blanks that touch on some of what I've read in the first 103 pages here, plus a Thiel-specific story in 2007 that may interest this discussion group. But first, a fast-forward to my current Thiel circumstances. “I am glad you found the CS3.7’s for sale. There was an upgraded crossover made for the CS3.7 at serial number approximately 517,18. The newer crossover was made on a PCB. The original crossover or Rev. 1, is the crossover in which you have purchased. The original crossovers (like yours) were done with point to point soldering, on a riveted masonite board. This is the crossover which I like best. Another update to the CS3.7 is through the coaxial driver (mr/tw). The original incorporates a silver basket and bezel. When we received the coaxes they varied in SPL, so we placed a small tuning resistor on each driver after testing to determine which was needed, to keep the SPL at a specified level. The new coaxes are black basket and bezel, and require a 2 ohm resistor, placed on each driver. All purchased drivers are ready to install.” Because the seller powered these 3.7’s with a high current Classe amplifier in use at sale, I’m confident about them so based on Rob’s reply, I chose to have them shipped direct from Vermont to Brentwood, TN where I live. I do know all boxes arrived in perfect shape = no fork lift penetrations etc. Sort of crazy to have all that drool-worthy gear just sitting, but I do like to sail. More to follow . . . Chris |
jon_5912 Plus1! I hear high end B&W's regularly and agree about the peaky tweeters. I would characterize them as too bright a treble for my taste. B&W sounds impressive in the showroom but would get on my nerves for longer periods of time. I have a desire to try a tube amp and tube friendly speakers to see if I can capture the "tube magic" in a speaker that sounds like a Thiel. Listening sessions with what I have listened to so far (Sonus Faber and Klipsch) end with me comparing to my CS5i's and the contenders come up short. Maybe it is time to try some big tube amps? Any thoughts on that? Thanks for listening, Dsper |
cargen Welcome! Good to read that you are another fan of the CS 3.7 loudspeaker and Conrad Johnson electronics. Reading through this thread, I chased the 350 Premier for quite a few years. It is an incredible Power Amp! You are fortunate to own one. Also good to read that you are located in the greater Nashville area. Take your time, enjoy reading through this thread. You will find several fans and owners of the 3.7 model. Enjoy the Music! Happy Listening! |
Jafant, Thank you for the welcome and more importantly for you having started/creaated this thread 5+/- years ago. It is a joy! Tom Thiel’s countless contributions to this thread are so wonderful. Tom sharing so many details of the formation, guiding precepts, theories and mission of Thiel are absolutely fascinating. In particular, Tom saying this somewhere in the first 100 pages of this thread was the TRIGGER for my account below of my own early audio journey.
Tom Thiel - “It bears noting that Jon Dahlquist of DQ-10 fame came from aerospace and that he used 18ga twisted pair solid copper in teflon when the rest of the industry used ordinary stranded wire. Hmmm.
In 1972, I was a starving recent college grad from the Cornell hotel school. I sort of helped, but mostly watched, a friend build homemade speakers from stock Radio Shack parts. I thought they sounded pretty horrible, but found the project fun. Somehow, I came across the first issue of The Absolute Sound and subscribed. In issue 4, the Dahlquist DQ-10 was reviewed, so I bought a pair. By 1975, I had purchased and myself installed a fairly elaborate after-market upgrade kit, which included replacement ribbon tweeters, different mid-range drivers and something called “polypropylene capacitors”, the latter somewhat esoteric for the 1970’s. I removed and re-installed all the speaker drivers so they mirror imaged each other. Crossovers of DQ-10’s are positioned on a shelf behind exposed midrange drivers. Then I damped the crossover and drivers with modeling clay and removed the woofers in order to access the woofer cavity where I damped the entire interior with modeling clay. Those speakers are still in my attic. As you might imagine they weigh a lot. Initially I drove them with pre-owned Audio Research SS preamp and gear. Later with a conrad-johnson PV-2A and dual Hafler DH-500 amplifiers, each of which I assembled myself from kits from zillions of parts and a soldering iron. I still have the Sota Sapphire turntable with Black Widow tone arm and moving magnet cartridge that was the system’s front end. All in original boxes in my attic. That DQ-10, c-j, Hafler, Sota Sapphire system somehow survived my multiple moves for several years as I general managed various resort hotels in Florida, Georgia, San Juan, St. Thomas and St. Croix USVI. By the mid 1980’s, marriage and raising children changed priorities and while I enjoyed that same system, my Audio-Video journey didn’t “re-activate” until 2003 with discovery of the Thiel PowerPoint. I hope I am not straining the patience of anyone reading this. The relevance will eventually revel itself. A clue is that currently own 19 Thiel speakers! More to come . . .
Chris |
I just wanted to follow up on my earlier post about SST Ampzilla 2000 monoblock amps. I've spend some quality time now with the Ampzilla's powering my CS7.2's. This setup is actually the Ampzilla monoblock amps as well as the matching Ambrosia preamp. My main system is an ARC Reference 3 preamp driving a pair of Levinson 436's. I've also recently used an Aragon stack (Aurum preamp + Palladium 2K amps) with the 7.2's. So far, I am really impressed. My listening space is medium sized (15' x 30'), but the SST setup seems to drive the speakers every bit as good as the Aragon setup. I need to do some sort of A/B with the ARC/Levinson setup and to try them with the CS5's. However, my initial thought is these are very much worthy of driving a pair of Thiels. They have great control of the speakers, are DEAD quiet, and otherwise don't seem to get in the way of the imaging and accuracy that Thiel speakers are known for. I know the cosmetics aren't for everyone, but I think at today's prices (you can get them new for a fraction of "retail") they are a relative bargain. |