Happy Friday! All
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,583 responses Add your response
Excuse the long post... I had initially searched and read through most of this thread (phew) before posting. I like to line my facts up and have parts before I start pulling a functioning item apart. I saw the list of capacitors Thiel used and I have suspicions about what I will find. I guess I will have to wait until I pull my board. BTW, Maybe I will create a FAQ doc for each of the two models that I can give people access to where we can record all the see details, reviews, resources, etc... Me and my gear: I like to listen to about any type of music, and like most of us I go through phases. My range is too wide to go into, but let's say 60's & 70's rock, progressive/alternative, soul, R&B, and blues, classical. I am having a great time rediscovering that range of music on the Thiels. The gear list for my two systems includes Krell and Hafler amps, BEL Canto DACs, and the "other" speakers are Von Schwiekert VR4JRs. I have made my cables: Beldan #10 speaker cable, and interconnects from Blue Jeans. Nothing crazy, just good-sounding equipment. While listening at low levels I am searching for an amp that is a better match for the CS3.6s. I want to find a relatively modern and repairable model. I had a line on a Proceed HPA2, but the age, reparability, and possibility of taking the CS3.6 out disqualified it. Thoughts? |
When the time presents itself i will post link to site I have the big Thiels going throuigh a workout. I'll start with the CS 7.2 since they are in room with their new plinths. Next will be the CS5i as I still need to manufacture a plinth for them. Followed by CS6 which I need to make a plinth for also. I'll get the CS 2.4 playing as well in "Jerry Seinfeld" silver. CS 2.7 in white are stunning. largeexpensiveboxesFor the larger Thiels I always preferred mono amps to keep the speaker cables as short as possible. I use 36" speaker cables. I will say on paper there are many amps that can be used with the CS6. However, there are far fewer amps that drive them with authority.
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Today marks this thread's 9th Anniversary here on AudiogoN. Since inception, we are acquiring and attracting new Contributors and Members of the Panel. Most of you guys enjoy Jim's earlier or vintage models as well. A model for every Audiophile! Happy Listening! |
Hi fellow Thiel owners, enthusiasts, and co-founder. I recently purchased a pair of CS2 2 and CS3.6 that I am enjoying immensely and appear to function well. While this is the case I want to do two "maintenance" tasks to them:
I have tried scouring the forum for specific directions and details on these two tasks, but I still have two questions relating to the tasks: 1.) Where is the best place to buy the ferrofluid? I am sure a ferrofluid is not all created the same. Finally, how much to use? I have heard descriptions, but is there a specified measurement? 2.) Has a currently available capacitor that is closest to the original spec been identified? I would like to keep both of these speakers stock unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. Thanks! |
@unsound Thank you - I confirmed with Hegel that they should have no issue driving them - they measured at 250 wpc at 8 ohms, 468 at 4 ohms, and 700+ (apparently) at 2 ohms, and they see no concerns.
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@largeexpensiveboxes , for the CS 6's look for amplification capable of a minimum of 400 Watts into 2 Ohms. Depending on your room and desired listening levels more power could be beneficial. For most people in most rooms 800 Watts into 2 Ohms would be satisfactory. The important thing to look for in making a short list of potential amplification considerations is to consider power into the the actual load demands. The CS 6's impedance is much more demanding than the CS 2's. That 2 Ohm capability is key, from there system compatibility and personal sonic preferences can be used. |
Thank you for the warm welcome!
Nothing special - bluejeans cable and then using airplay to play qobuz. I've tried to keep things simple - particularly as I move fairly often.
I primarily listen to jazz and classical music (particularly solo piano - big Radu lupu fan), but some motown, stevie wonder, cuban music, etc.
I'm incredibly excited to upgrade from the CS2s I have to the next level of Thiels... hoping I can secure the CS6s - working out some shipping logistics. |
Devin - Thiel crossover schematics state the max tolerance of each cap. Some are 5%, some 10%. Among the strategies, I prefer to try for close to equal values when splitting. I've learned end-reversal via trials. E-caps are fundamentally symmetrical, but in fact the small differences, including lead-wire directionality, are audible and supported in the measurements. Music signal is AC, so optimizing for either direction produces mixed results; splitting directionality is always superior. By the way, Thiel's long-term cap brand was Solen. Their house sound is somewhat dark and smooth. We later went to ERSE for a more neutral, open signature. When they became unavailable, M.D.L (Taiwan) was chosen. and the final FST (China) cap was CYC. I use M.D.L from Madisound for classic late-Thiel signature. My new layouts honor propagation waveform integrity. When splitting any cap, build a bundle that makes sense. If 3 caps, I build a triangle separated by cork pads, with the 1uF bypass in the middle of the bottom row. Air circulates through the whole stack. A unified field is floated around the 4 cap bundle. Trials prove this arrangement superior to other layouts. By the way in series feeds, the yellow 1uF Thiel bypass cap is replaced with our new multi-sectioned cap with multiple coaxial windings that start around 0.015uF and add up to the target value. Those will be available in 2025.
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vair68robert 12.5uF. Replaced with 8+4.7uF house-brand caps from Parts Express. Similar quality level as OEM as far as I can tell. I did upgrade severely heat-damaged 10% sandcast resistors (one was open) with 1% wirewounds and bumped power dissipation from 10W to 20W and 25W to 40W respectively. How resistors got that hot in a speaker crossover of all places is not something I can claim to understand, seeing that drivers appear original and in quite good shape without evidence of having been grossly overdriven in the past. |
tomthiel Interesting, I think this is the first time I hear this. To make sure I understand, you are recommending replacing, say, one 100uF bipolar with two // 50uF bipolars, correct? So, when you say "turn one cap backwards" do you mean just physically, as in making sure the writings on the caps run in opposite directions? Since both caps are non-polarized anyway. As far as cancelling anomalies, is that because bipolar caps are internally non-symmetrical? I had to // caps in my rebuild because original values were unavailable. The pairs are not equal in value, but close enough that hopefully the smaller ones don't act as bypass. Also, I never thought of swapping ends because I hadn't read this post yet Thank you again for sharing your knowledge. |
devin - Replacing like with like components is certainly the safest. Many folks underestimate the intricate co-dependence of all the elements. Even layout changes affect the subtle outcomes. Keeping values at original levels is a good start, but various parasitics also matter. The frequency response is rarely changed in significant ways; but time/phase generally is. You may remember the maddening months to years delays between Thiel product announcements, or even live displays, and their actual release. Most of that time was tweaking, mostly in realms more subtle than most designers would pay attention to. In our DIY / rework world, the largest trap that I’ve found is subbing foil for the original wire inductors. Foil is indeed a more pure inductor, but its parasitics are so different from wire that considerable xo tweaks would be required to re-settle the circuits. The safest bet is subbing in Mills MRA resistors for Thiel stock. Another safe and surprisingly effective tweak is replacing any electrolytic cap with 2 x half-value cap. The ESR and other anomalies are reduced by half, plus if you turn one cap backwards, end for end, other anomalies are cancelled. If there is a bypass cap (like Thiel’s yellow 1uF), that can be stacked to make a triangle for a single field. Replacing caps, especially larger values is quite costly and sometimes demands circuit tweaks. It’s not hard to throw as much cost into upgrades as the entire production budget of the original speaker. Not for the faint of heart. TT |
I thought this might be of some use. But if not, it is some good news for me. I got a used BAT VK 250 from TMR. They sent it in to BAT in November before I was even looking at it. BAT checked it out and replaced the big caps with the news ones they use in their amps. Anyway I have had it for three weeks. This is a sweet sounding amp so far. It sounds nicely transparent and warm at the same time. It has the right warmth and body, a feel that their is a real whole human body playing/singing from the gut up, and real whole body instrument sounds. And it does the disappearing thing, where you just see into the performance and forget about the speakers. Nicely naturally detailed that I enjoy hearing. Seems like a perfect balance for me. It shows no signs of lacking power. And it seems to fit the Thiel 2.4 sound profile perfectly for me. Extremely well balanced from top to bottom, so nothing sticking out but the connection to the artists. The plane of the sound starts at the speaker line and goes back from there. You get the excellent intimate perspective when recorded, the pace rhythm and timing Thiel is excels at, and the really good macro part that impresses in the dynamics. If somebody lives on the edge and wants a bottom up speaker sound or a top down sound this may not work, but maybe.
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I totally hear you :) Then again, you had the invaluable benefit of being guided by perhaps the most qualified person on Earth. This, I think you will agree, is an unusual circumstance. I was on my own for my last rebuild, short of conjuring a séance with Arnie Nudell. I don’t have quite all the skills to modify / redesign 5-way, 7-driver crossovers with any expectation of actually improving them. I stand by my earlier comment as it applies to most enthusiasts; barring an expert guiding us, I do believe replacing same with same is the course of action most likely to yield success. To put things in perspective, 14 out of 14 electrolytics I replaced tested perfectly fine, both ESR and capacitance, despite being almost 45 years old. I did find three bad resistors and one bad rheostat though, which I wouldn’t have expected.
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Total resistance of my new boards was within 0.1 Ohm of the OEM. This was not some haphazard replacement of parts. Nearly all of the design and parts choices, including board layout, were made by @tomthiel. My only contributions, other than the labor, were choice of resistors (which Tom cosigned) and hookup wire and binding posts (use of Cardas was my decision more than Tom’s). To my ears, any modifications to the “voicing” was well worth it :) |
Most crossovers use film caps in the HF circuit from the factory. In LF / MF circuits, I tend to replace same with same when I rebuild crossovers, figuring that where the designer used electrolytics they took the latter's inherently higher ESR into account in their overall design, such that replacing them with low ESR caps might alter the voicing of the speaker. |
@jafant Thanks, I've never had CS2.7 (unless I wrote the wrong number in an old post). Have and love my CS3.7s. Good for a lifetime of wondering how can I make them even better without going bankrupt on the next AMP. :) |
@tomthiel Glad to know you’re still working on the upgrades and making them more cost effective. I never bothered to total my parts cost other than I know it was well above $1000 even with some of the discounts you were able to provide on some items. But it was money well spent. I’m unaware of any speaker less than $10k that can touch these. I think I would need to go to at least a Vandy Quatro ($15k last I looked) to be this happy. I have zero regrets and was happy to replace the entirety of my crossovers for reasons you are aware of. Plus, I now have only film caps and should not need to ever re-cap the boards :) |
@jafant yes, still running Cardas Golden Reference which have been out of production for years now. Bi-wired! That was my final step along with upgrading to Cardas CPB binding posts. That really snapped everything into a beautiful focus, icing on the cake of many fruitful upgrades. OTOH, I also have a Cardas Golden powercord to my amp, and that might be the least cost effective tweak I’ve done. |
SCS4 uses the same tweeter as the 2.7’s and would be a great match. MCS1 would be another option to look at. MCS1 is quite large and has two woofers single midrange and tweeter. I think this one would make more of a notable change for your setup.
I own both and between the two I feel the MCS1 provides a larger soundstage for the center channel in my setup. |
timm1951 Krell FPB 300cx. Pleaase note I was referring to bottom end between the two. The FPB series are a great pairing with the Thiels especially the hard to drive Thiels. In a perfect world bi amp the Thiels with the MDA on bottom and the FPB for mids and highs. That is not possible of course unless speakers are modified. For my CS5i Im on the lookout for a pair of FPB 750cmx or MDA-500. As I mentioned I clip my Pass XA200.5 with the CS 5i but mated with the CS 7.2 the XA 200.5 produces an engaging experience for the listener. I use the 200.5 for other Thiel speakers under the CS 7.2 with great results. Over kill for the CS 2.4 as you can get a XA 100.5 that will do the job or a Conrad Johnson Premier 350S. It's cheaper on the used market than the XA 100.5 and it is the amp to mate with the CS 2.4 from my experience.
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Beetle - our project was good both ways. Thank you for your careful and complete evaluations and reports. Even though we both think that you got seriously upgraded performance, there are actually big gains to be attained with less expenditure. One of these days I hope that you'll try out the next round. I know it's been a long time - but things are coming into focus.
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I’ve occasionally thought about trying something like that or, maybe, Path resistors in the coax feed. But I also remember buttoning up the binding post panel after I added dual Cardas binding posts as the culmination to about 3 months of upgrading everything except the drivers and cabinets. That was no small effort. Meanwhile, I remain really happy with my system. Recently heard $80k speakers connected to similar price point electronics and I’m not missing much. In some ways, I actually prefer my rig. Thanks again to Tom Thiel for coaching me during the upgrade! Happy 2025 |
