This is for Georgehifi especially but others can chime in.
I am buying Dynaudio C-1 Platinums and would like an ideal amp. Which would you choose? I prefer solid state. Separates or integrated. If you could recommend a few optimum choices that would be great. Based on my short couple years on here you strike me as very knowledgable on the subject. My dealer wants me on Pass Labs. Incidentally right now I have the Devialet 400 and I’m pretty sure you are not a fan of this type of amp. Any of your wisdom is appreciated. Thanks, Mike
I have owned a Solid State amplifier with Dynaudio speakers combo for over 15 years. I think a large stereo (350watts into 4ohms) from McIntosh Labs, Jeff Rowland Design, Plinus , Classe Audio or if you can swing some nicely powered mono blocks (500 watts into 4ohms). I like separate components. These speakers require high power to open up and blow you away! Give them the right Amp and upstream sources you will be able to experience these speakers as intended. (great stands are a must as well)
bubba12 This is for Georgehifi especially but others can chime in.
I am buying Dynaudio C-1 Platinums and would like an ideal amp.
Hi Mike, the C1's tested at are 85dB, so you need at least a 100wpch amp or higher depends how loud you want to go. But a worry is that they need a bit of current as well, at around 80hz to 110hz, and that's the power (current) region, because they are not only 4ohms but also have a dip of -40degrees - phase angle as well in this region. This could have an EPDR of around 2ohms as seen by the amp. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/1107DC1fig1.jpg
Myself I'd go for the Pass because I have a thing with Class-D for now, but both should work fine with the C1's, I'd try to audition both in your own system, to see what you prefer. I'd say the Pass will have the sweeter more believable upper mids/highs, but the Dev "could" have the better bass.
We have tested the Devialet vs the T+A electronics and the T+A just killed the Devialet, we also tested the T+A vs Thrax, MBL, Krell, Boulder and a few other major electronics lines.
Musifx tested the T+A vs the Pass to drive a set of WIlson'sand again chose the T+A.
T+A makes two series of products that will both easily drive a set of Dynaudio C1.
They have the HV series which offers 2 intergrated amplifiers the PA 3000 at $18k and the upgraded PA 3100 at $21k.These are both massively powerful 300 watt into 8ohm, 500 watt 4 ohm integrated amplifiers.
They also have the $11k PA 2500R which is a 140 watt integrated, however, the unit keeps on going down to a staggering 580 watts into a 2ohm load.
To give you some persepective: T+A is the largest high end manufacturer in Germany with a full time staff of 110 people, with 14 full time engineers. Burmester is 10 people, along with a few of the others.
T+A makes everything themselves, and use proprietary technology in this case HV. HV stands for High Voltage, T+A discovered that when you run solid state devices at high voltages the sound becomes much smoother and more natural, like a tube.
The PA 3000 HV integrated was compared to $120k worth of CH Precision separates in the Absolute Sound and Alan Taffel found he was having difficutly hearing any major difference
The sound of the T+A is natural, smooth, with a huge soundstage, deep propulsive bass, with fantastic balance of information retrival with liquidity, plus punch.
Build quality is fantastic, and the gear is built to last a lifetime.
If you are on the East Coast, you should come in and take a listen.
Whenever I hear that one component "KILLS", "DESTROYS" or otherwise "OBLITERATES" another component my bullshit detector goes off. Am I the only one? Others can chime in.
No, you’re not the only one. Same here. Once a certain performance level is attained it just isn’t possible for one component to annihilate another. Often times its a matter of preference, not better or worse.
Edit:
But you certainly could find better or worse measurements, technical data and that sort of thing. But measurement data sometimes belies how a component may sound. Also, in this "hobby", the tendency is that the slightest incremental improvement can be hard to come by and pricey at that. So all of those verbs may simply be a variant of irrational exuberance.
Yup, The hyperbole is often extreme. Mere fuses or cleaning your contacts with a special paste is FANTASTIC and KILLS and DESTROYS any speaker or electronics upgrade imaginable at ANY price.
Some folks were born with yesterday’s rain, or at least the posters promulgating these lies believe so.
I would be looking at something like Bel Canto ref600m amps for top notch sound, bang for the buck, manageable size, and low power consumption/electric bills.
I say that based on my current use (for several happy years now) of older ref1000m amps with other Dynaudio monitors (Contour 1.3mkII).
I also have newer current generation Bel Canto c5i 60w/ch integrated amp in my second system and with the Dynaudio monitors the only thing more I might want is more of the same quality watts.
Hard to go wrong with Bel Canto products in general, IMHO. They do things right! Like Mr. Pass but somewhat differently and perhaps a tad more focus on affordability.
looks like someone told the truth so the mods removed his post
Actually, it was @onhwy61 post and mine directly after that was removed. And yes, there was nothing but truth stated. Keep in mind it was just opinion anyway.
I believe (not sure and could be mistaken) the reason the posts were removed had something to do with an erroneous determination on audiogon's part (likely programmatic with non-human intervention) that the posts were spam related.
@georgehifi I am open to any suggestions. I have a dealer who sells and loves Pass Labs. Frankly it’s one brand I can’t remember anyone badmouthing at all. @mapman I have owned a Bel Canto Preamp and liked it a lot. The Ref 600 intrigues me and my dealer sells them so maybe I can demo them also.
Regarding the two posts that were removed, I’m pretty certain that the reason for their removal had nothing to do with the thoughts they were intended to convey, but instead was because the first one contained an expletive, and the second one began by quoting the contents of the first one, including the expletive.
Following are expurgated versions of said posts, derived by utilizing Google’s cache, which I suspect will be acceptable to the moderators:
Onhwy61 1-11-2018 Whenever I hear that one component "KILLS", "DESTROYS" or otherwise "OBLITERATES" another component my BS detector goes off. Am I the only one? Others can chime in.
Gdhal 1-11-2018 No, you’re not the only one. Same here. Once a certain performance level is attained it just isn’t possible for one component to annihilate another. Often times its a matter of preference, not better or worse.
Edit:
But you certainly could find better or worse measurements, technical data and that sort of thing. But measurement data sometimes belies how a component may sound. Also, in this "hobby", the tendency is that the slightest incremental improvement can be hard to come by and pricey at that. So all of those verbs may simply be a variant of irrational exuberance.
BTW, my compliments to Gdhal for what I consider to be apt use at the end of his post of a phrase made famous in the 1990s by former Federal Reserve chairman Greenspan.
@georgehifi What do you think of Classe CAM 400 Monos?
I like them very much "but", what I didn’t like in one of the higher end older models, was they used an input opamp for the balanced circuit which then fed to the discrete single ended circuit. So the balanced in was just an added opamp in the signal path, compared to the SE in, no guesses which sounded better.
Regarding the two posts that were removed, I’m pretty certain that the reason for their removal had nothing to do with the thoughts they were intended to convey, but instead was because the first one contained an expletive, and the second one began by quoting the contents of the first one, including the expletive.
Very resourceful of you as always @almarg to retrieve the data via google. However, I must disagree with the rationale you offer for the removal of said posts. Consider what in my view is compelling evidence to the contrary. Any one of the words - including abbreviated words, acronyms and quotation - used in my post and that of Onhwy61 which could even remotely be viewed as expletive appear in numerous other posts throughout this forum.
BTW, my compliments to Gdhal for what I consider to be apt use at the end of his post of a phrase made famous in the 1990s by former Federal Reserve chairman Greenspan.
Sorry to convey what you guys may say as hyperbole, but if a pair of $18k amps fails to convey any emotion, and sounds clean but life lifeless, and the soundstage isn't that amazing, and even though that amp is famous for bass and the bass isn't coming through on a pair of $68k speakers or another set for $35k or another set for $32k and another combo just sounds magical what would you call it?
Now in terms of price the Devialet was the bargain compared to the T+A stack or a T+A integrated plus dac and cables, but we are reporting the results one setup magic on the other no magic so the cost factor doesn't come into play the greatest bargain $10k hand made suit that doesn't fit you isn't a bargain even if you got it for $300 bucks!
We tested multiple sets of expensive reference electronics on the Polymers, Blades, and Paradigm Personas, and the least good was the Devialet, The Trax stuff was fantastic but the T+A was better, and a few of our other reference setups with tubes didn't sound as good either.
As per Ref 600 they are nice amps we compared them to the Nuforce Ref 9 which had a much more magical midrange, we have tested Hypex and Ncore and Pascal based amps so far none of them are as magical as a good class A or Class A/B amplifier.
As per kills in audio, Scotch or cars yes it does. A bottle of ripple sucks, a bottle of Manchevitz is slightly better, but none of these are considered fine wine. A bottle of Clan Mcgreor Scotch a $15 a bottle, It is barely drinkable and it is not a Mcallans 12, and the Mcallans 18 s better still. So in our humble opinion there are plenty of things that subjectively kill an other thing.
Does a Ferrari kill a Mustang? In terms of performance yes and no, but most people if they could afford a Ferrari would much prefer to drive one over a Mustang.
Kost you are wrong sir, linearity is improved in a transistor when run on a higher voltage rail T+A was the first company to discover this simple fact, that transistors transfer function becomes better when the rail voltage is increased as they produce less distortion and function more accurately.
The T+A HV and R Series have been universally lauded as well as compared to much more expensive electronics.
We are not saying Pass is bad, on the contrary Pass gear is very, very, good, but we have yet to hear a Pass labs setup that was as three dimensional or as clean and fast yet retaining a slightly liquid overall presentation.
When an $18 integrated amp can be compared to $120k worth of extraordinary Swiss electronics and a $21k integrated can be compared to a $45k Dagastino integrated amp which is considered one of the best integrated amplifiers on the market and the reviewer said the T+A amp was in the same class it would make me take notice.
We did, brought in the gear, tested it , compared it and found it to mirror what the critics came away with.
Yes the T+A gear is really that good. Is it the best on the market? We wouldn't say that but it is in the upper echelon with some of the best uber gear and when compared to the best of the best it is usually less expensive to boot.
Gdhal 1-11-2018 However, I must disagree with the rationale you offer for the removal of said posts. Consider what in my view is compelling evidence to the contrary. Any one of the words - including abbreviated words, acronyms and quotation - used in my post and that of Onhwy61 which could even remotely be viewed as expletive appear in numerous other posts throughout this forum.
Hi Hal,
What I can say is that every single time I have seen what are sometimes referred to as "four-letter words" in a post here, or lengthier words which include those four letters in the same sequence (as was the case in the two posts which were removed from this thread earlier today), the post has subsequently been removed. At least since the present forum format was introduced a few years ago.
While various acronyms and abbreviations which have a relation to those words seem to be allowed to stand, assuming the post has no other issues.
So I believe the suspicion I expressed in my previous post about the reason for the removal of the two earlier posts was correct.
What I can say is that every single time I have seen what are sometimes referred to as "four-letter words" in a post here, or lengthier words which include those four letters in the same sequence (as was the case in the two posts which were removed from this thread earlier today), the post has subsequently been removed.
Al - I'll remain mindful of your advice in any future posts of mine.
OP - Apologies for any inadvertent diversion that I may have caused.
You are missing my point, and we are world’s away from Bo’s crazy Tru Fi claims or are saying we are the only ones out there that can make good sound.
If you read any of our posts we are pointing out to products that are pretty highly rated already.
Taste is taste, there must be system synergy and of course even highly rated products may not be one person’s cup of tea.
In the case of a Timex which I have owned, and a Tag Heuer, or a Mauric Lacroix both watches I own, there is no such thing as a watch which performs better ie kills another watch. In fact a cheap Timex quartz will take more accurate time readings than any $50k Rolex or Patek.
You purchase a watch as it is a beautiful bauble.
In the case of an audio amplifier or dac or whatever there can be good, better, and best, levels of performance. Over the years we have heard a lot of really expensive gear some of the uber gear is really amazing and is really performing at an even higher level of overall performance
System synergy still has to apply, we have a Light Harmonic Davinci which is a $35k Dac and yes it "killed" the lesser dacs, which we had in the shop at $15k and $25k, by killed once you heard the Davinci it was impossible to listen to the other dacs once you heard how much better the Davinci was in those areas that we value.
Performance and worth or value are too different things.
On direct comparison the T+A was way better than everything we tested.
We did find out that a $90k Boulder Mono block was better than a $32k stereo T+A amp with an outboard power supply, but that wasn’t a fair fight as T+A offers a mono block version which may be dramatically better we never heard it so we don’t know. The Boulder was better in certain areas, the T+A actually had better bass which seemed impossible considering the size and weight of the Boulders.
Hope that helps clarify. Why don’t you read the actual reviews and see for yourself. We would say that both reviews really do paint a true picture of this gear it is really special, again we are not saying it is better than some of the other uber brands, but if you look at Dagastino, Vitus, Boulder, and other similar models the T+A gear costs less and if magnificently finished with a fantastic feature set.
Go find some and see for yourself or don’t that is your call.
T plus A has why dont you talk to their engineers?
Could it be that if you use a higher voltage tranistor which is neccesitated by these designs that transistor run on that voltage rail runs with greater linearity than a lower voltage variation?
There are more variables then what you think.
I am sure you also believe that power cords dont work either?
You just cant run more voltage through the same device, it is called a high voltage circuit for a reason.
I think power cords are useful in that they do supply current from the wall to the gear (and my toaster, etc.), and any positive comments about gear from salesmen who carry the gear they comment about chews the fun out of the gum of any forum discussion.
I assume we are talking about MOSFET transistors on the output stage? Nothing new. Ideal for delivering extremely high current. Extremely high breakdown voltage. Low switching distortion and fail in a nice way (open circuit) which prevents too much collateral damage. Hafler started using these in the 80’s.
Why do you think BJT’s are good for passing high current?
If you don’t know this, then well??? Look at any amp "tested" that can almost double it’s wattage for each halving of impedance right down to 2 or even 1ohm and 99.99% of the time it will be an amp that has Bi-Polar (BJT) outputs. Go back to giving audiotroy grief, and stop preaching your F5, yes it’s good but there are many better for delivering big current into low impedance’s.
They’re the most prone of all devices to thermal runaway.
Tell Gryphon, Krell, Agostion ect that little furphy.
I have been in contact with Audiogon support regarding the removal of my post. Proof of the following response is evidenced by the reappearance of my post dated 01-11-2018 12:30pm. Their response is as follows.
"I reviewed both of your post and they should not have been removed. Have no idea how and why that happened."
That gives credence to my original assertion as to to why they were initially deleted. Spam. Within the realm of spam, it was detected erroneously and programmatically, without human intervention.
The original post by @onhwy61 can also be restored.
Khost you are missing the point. The only ones who actually know the merits of their specific special sauce, is the engineers who designed the product in the first place.
In Audio as with anything else that relies on talented people designing products, each company has a specific idea on what makes their products unique and better than their competition.
Take for example Spectral who uses ultra wide bandwidth circuitry, vs Gamut who tends to like amplifiers using a single output device, vs the approach that Dartzeel uses or Solution, or Ayre or Bolder, these are all excellent and different sounding products.
The point is we don’t really care wether of not the designer uses Mosfets, Bipolars, BJT, single output devices, multiple output devices it is immaterial, stop being a gear head and do what most reviewers and dealers do, we listen and compare actual products.
How do we know the T+A gear is special? We test and compare it to whatever products we can test it against.
On our Blade setup we compared the Parasound Halo JC 1, Electrocompaniet AW 400, Chord SPM 1400, Devialet D 400 monos,and then the T+A gear.
On the Polymer Audio Research speakers, tested Thrax, Devialet, Conrad Johnson, and T+A.
On a pair of Genesis we tested T+A vs $120k pair of Krell MRA
We tested T+A vs $90k set of Boulder mono-blocks on a set of Kharmas
and there are more examples of real world testing.
The long story short, is the T+A gear madethe Polymers, the Blades, and Paradigm Personas, sound way better than the other products tested in the same room, with the same speakers, and components.
Again, if you look at the Positive Feedback review of the T+A PA 3100 a $21k integrated vs the Dagastino Momentum integrated a $45k product the reviewer loved the T+A and said it sounds as good as the D’agastino model. Who cares which technology is being used, it is the sound that matters.
Why do we recommend this brand so highly because the gear is really special sounding, and is among the best in the world and if you look at these two reviews TAS and Positive Feedback the gear is being compared to radically more expensive stuff and found to perform at that level of a lot less money, TAS $18k T+A integrated vs $120k CH Precision stack, Positive Feedback $21k T+A vs $45k Momentum.
Why don’t you read the reviews or better yet test this gear for yourself.
At the end it is the sound quality that matters not the specific technology.
ONE FINAL POINT! GUESS WHO WAS T+A's original USA IMPORTER?
Give up?
Dyaudio was!
Michael Manousselis of Dynaudio North America believes that Dynaudio will import T+A's entire line of electronics and loudspeakers. "The first time I was in Germany, in the mid-'90s," he explained by phone, "I was amazed at the breadth of their well-rounded product range. Their engineering capabilities are very impressive, and everything is designed in-house. There are logical explanations for their circuits. They don't leave things to luck or to chance."
Most recently, Manousselis heard T+A's E-series Power Plant, which he described as wonderfully built, great sounding, and a great companion to the company's Mk.II streaming music player. "I wouldn't be able to work with a product that I wouldn't be happy to own, and this is something I wouldn't hesitate to own," he declared.
Both Manousselis and Dynaudio International CEO Wilfried Ehrenholz praise the synergy of T+A electronics and Dynaudio speakers. In addition, some of T+A's lifestyle loudspeakers (eg, the Talis) differ significantly from those in Dynaudio's line.
In summation, Manousselis declared, "T+A produces a very big, powerful, and gripping sound—one typically associated with much larger electronic components—from a very elegant, slimline, European design aesthetic. That's what separates them from a lot of the other electronic offerings out there."
Keithr it isn't that the Pass didn't sound good, Musicfx compared a Pass Labs integrated at $12k to a T+A Integrated an 2500R from the less expensive R series integrated amp, for $11k for use with a pair of Wilson Sashas and bought the T+A. because to his ears the T+A sounded better.
We have heard Pass numerous times, it is very musical solid state, it just doesn't have the speed and dimensional quality you get from the T+A gear, it is also way more colored.
The Octave stuff is excellent if you want tubes
The very fact that Dynaudio was importing the T+A gear and was recommending the two brands says quite a lot.
The two companies parted ways because T+A felt that Dynaudio was more concerened with marketing of their speakers then actively getting T+A off the ground in the US.
When I owned a pair of Dyn C1s (not Platinum) I used a Simaudio i7 integrated. I listened to a T+A integrated at my dealer at the time, from the R series, along with a T+A cd player. To my ears the bass was taut but not as deep as the Dyns were capable of. The Simaudio i7 fed by my Supernova cd player gave better bass and overall presentation; weightier and fuller. The current model, 700i, has more power than the i7. The C1s are a special speaker for their physical size. Hope you have many hours of delightful listening!
Thank you everyone for a spirited conversation. I follow these forums regularly and enjoy each of you. @keithr What preamp were you using? Simaudio 700 is an awesome match with the Dynaudio C1 and I should definitely consider it. @audiotroy seem to get a bad rap on here. They are trying to sell gear but I take their enthusiasm as a love for the product.
T+A was imported by Quartet marketing about 14 years ago. I have been carrying T+A Products since then. Yes T+A was also imported by Dynaudio for a few years because they showed together for a few years in Munich also. T+A is brilliant stuff. If you're in Los Angeles, Come by and experience every product they make. Yes including their Mono Blocks too.
i found audio research pairs nicely with dynaudio (both their solid state and tube products). worth giving klaus at odyssey audio a call too - his amps can beautifully drive any speaker.
they don’t require as much thermal runaway protection.
You keep saying that and they have it, talk to Gryphon and Krell who make some of the highest biased Class-A amp there are, and what do they use??? BJT’s WHY??? Because they give the best current ability. And 4 X 150w pure Class-A that I made, BJT’s, and yes they were water cooled if you have doubts about getting rid of the heat. Sure if your a dumb a**e and can’t design for s**t you can get thermal runaway I expect that from a backyard diy'er, but you don’t see any of the above doing that. And they will, I repeat, WILL out current any Mosfet amp into low impedance’s. Sorry but you have your head in the sand if you don’t know this.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
