Tonearm/Cart Matching Assistance - SAEC 407/23

Hi Travis. I read your last question about this, and didn't know the answer. However, since I do know that the SAEC is a knife-edge bearing design, I'd stay away from low compliance cartridges with this one due to possible bearing chatter. Since is it probably a fairly heavy arm, high compliance is also out. So to be on the safe side, a medium compliance cartridge will probably do the job with least chance of major problems. I couldn't find any effective mass specs for this arm on the web.

Thanks Tom. FWIW, the arm is supposed to accomodate "cart+headshell" weights of 8-33.5 grams and carts with tracking force of 0-4 grams (though another source suggests 0-2.5g). From what a few Japanese dealers have told me, this arm was oftenused with an Ortofon SPU cart/headshell combo here in Japan back in its day (15-20yrs ago) and the SPU cart/headshell unit is about 30-32g if I have it figured out correctly.

Also, can you suggest where I'd start looking for a medium compliance cart (makers, etc) and what medium compliance is in terms of numbers?

I am looking for a owners manual for a SAEC 407/23 tonearm.
At the least I need to find out how to set the slider weight at the rear of the arm and the string weight used for the anti-scate. Can anyone HELP???

Dear travis: I own/owned SAEC tonearms, last ones the 506-30 and WE-8000. The 506 is similar in many ways to the 407, where the 407 is a short version and the 506 a long one between other " differences ".

I have the opportunity to mount several and different compliance/weight cartridges, between them: Ortofon 7500 ( 11grs and 13cu. ), Koetsu RSP ( 14grs and 10cu ), XV-1s ( 13grs and 12cu ), Accuphase ( 8 grs and 12cu ), Ikeda REX9 ( 16grs and 4cu ), Ortofon MC2000 ( 10 grs and 18-20cu ). No one of these cartridges and other ones that I try with the 506-30 performs bad, some of them are not the best match ( effective mass/compliane ) but performs good.
These SAEC double-knife bearing design are really good and its ceramic build headshell help in good way to permit that different cartridges can/could run ok.

I don't know with which cartridges do you want to try it but the best answer is what you will hear with those cartridges.

About VTF there is no precise limit, this depends on the headshell/cartridge weight ( the headshell is 18grs. ) and how much you have to carry the counterweight to the pivot for balance it and from there how much space leave forward to the counterweight. Of course that you can try it with different headshell weight to change ( lower ) its effective mass trying to get a better cartridge match. Very good tonearm indeed.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Antslappy: About the anti-skate: first you put the tonearm at the very outside of the record/LP position, then put the sting weight in the anti-skate " bayonet " ( that has a nut to tight it: turn-around counter-clockwise. ) at the desire value and finally you move forward/backward the bayonet till the string make a 90 degrees with the AS scale, then turn-around the nut clock-wise and that's it.

The effective length is 233mm and overhang 12mm.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul, thanks. I last posted to the thread five and a half years ago. I have found that I prefer heavier-weight, lower compliance carts with the 407/23. I still use it quite a bit. I do not have the SAEC ceramic headshell. Mine didn't come with it, and they go for a pretty penny. Maybe I should get one anyway. In any case, I use a Yamamoto ebony headshell which is a bit lighter, and perhaps one reason why I prefer heavier carts.

I have two SAEC ceramic headshells. Yes they are (were) expensive ($100.00 each) and beautifully made. Gorgeous! I have one in white pearl ceramic and the other is gray ceramic. However, I don't use either one now. I use a high compliance cartridge that tracks at one gram.

I had the Saec ceramic headshell back in the 80’s using it on a Saec 407/23 and 506/30. These were on my Micro Seiki RX-1500VG table. I tried the Saec ceramic headshell on several MC cartridges including Highphonic, Saec and others back in the day. I could never get a good sound with the ceramic headshell for some reason.  Always seemed too bright and hard sounding.  Always a bit too edgy. 
I got out of vinyl for many years and just a few years ago got back into vinyl and man I’m so happy I did. Really loving it again! Now I have a Micro Seiki BL-99V with the Saec 407/TM and a Technics EPC-205C mkIV (compliance 12µm/nm).  Bought a Jico SAS stylus for it and loving the sound! The 407 is a medium mass arm and likes low to medium compliance cartridges. I just picked up an old Stanton Epoch II HZ7S cartridge which is a low compliance cart. (compliance of 18µm/nm). Haven’t received it yet, but I hear they sound wonderful. Hoping it comes close to my Technic’s sound as I’m looking for a cartridge that I can slightly tweak sideways in the head shell a little bit to get better alignment whereas the techniques is an all in one headshell/cartridge. From what I’ve read a cartridge with a compliance below 20 would be best with the Saec 407 arms and probably no higher then 25µm/mn.

Dear @harpo75 : The 205CMK4 is a superb quality level performer ( I owned. ) its compliance at 10hz ( not 100hz as japanese specified. ) is around 19cu that made it a border high compliance cartridge.

In those times I owned around 20 tonearms ( mainly japanese ) 3 SAEC in between and were not good enough for the Technics top MM/MC cartridges even with out the beautiful made and way resonant ceramic headshell.

Btw, Dr. Sa Win said in his operation manual, well in reality you can read as an Alert: please don't mount the cartridge in knife bearing tonearms and the SAEC is double knife. I owned the Sao Win LOMC cartridge, very good too but not in the SAEC.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTOTIONS,

R.

@harpo75  : It's really weird SAEC tonearms ( at least the 407/506/8000 ) that were made with an exceptional quality building levels choosed knife bearing, unfortunated for say the least.

 

R.

Very interesting!   I had never heard this.  I’ll have to research that. 
Hoping the Stanton Epoch II HZ7S cartridge performs well in the 407/TM.  

So I’ve been looking for information on this Dr. Sa Win and the manual you speak of.  I am not able to find anything on Dr. Sa Win or what you speak of about knife edge chatter.  Could you refer me to this information please.  I’ve also never heard of the Saec arms having any issue like this.  Thanks!

Try looking up Sao win cartridge or take Raul‘s Word for it. He knows where of he speaks.

@harpo75 : The Warning because he puts that way comes in the operation manual of the SMC 10 LOMC designed by Dr. Sao Win. That cartridge came from 2018 and Dr. Win manufactured too a Srain Gauge cartridge and TT too.

I sold my sample and I don't have any more the manual. By coincidence SME changed from knife/ball historical bearings to ABEC9 gimball in its SME V and you can be sure that did it for good reasons.

Thak’s lewm.

 

R.

Thanks.  I used to sell Micro Seiki turntables and Saec back in the 80’s.  One thing was the Saec double knife edge bearings were much better then most other companies.  Even Micro Seiki used them on their turntables and even at the audio shows when demoing.  Anyway I’ve always had high regard for the sound quality from them.  Not saying they are the best or anything but extremely good.  
But after installing my Technics EPC-U205C mk3 (headshell is very critical to the sound. Lighter the better & wood seemed best) and a EPC-205C mkIV on two different Saec arms.  A WE-308L (fonolab upgrade) which was on a Thorens TD-125L (very modded) and a WE-407/TM on the Micro I kept having tracking issues.  I’m quick burst, whether vocal or instrument, I would hear a kind of thump which I finally realized was miss-tracking after working on every area forever.  So yes I tend to believe there is an issue between the cartridge and arm.  I’ve done literally ever to try to remedy this.  
I got ahold of an old Signet TK-6020 cartridge analyzer and test record and no matter what I did, seemed like combinations of adjustments and tweaks and dampening  even, I couldn’t get rid of the tracing issue.  I have gotten it to sound absolutely wonderful otherwise but that “pooffpp” sound sometimes on quick dynamic parts is annoying to say the least.  That’s the best I describe the sound it makes.  It’s kind of like the sound of a turn-on thump but very quick.  
All this to say yes I do believe what you are saying.  I really love the Saec arm but if I don’t find a cartridge that can give me the sound quality that I like from the Technics using the 407 I’ve considered maybe looking at the Technics arm to use with the 205C mkIV. 

@harpo75  : The knifge type of tonearm bearing " tend " to rattle.

Yes, you are rigth because japanese audiophiles loved the SAEC tonearms, its reality is that are a beauty toour eyes.I owned those 3 models from new that I bougth in LA ( Ilive in Mèxico city. ) Japanese Stereo importer that was if I remember in Wilsher Blvd.

Well,If you still own the EPA-100 this is very good option for your MK4 great cartridge performer.

 

R.

 

Never owned an EPA-100 arm but thinking I would like to!

Yes the store was on Wilshire. I had a small store in Orange County, CA and sold Micro, Saec and many other products like Quad, Counterpoint, Music Reference, etc. Those were fun days before digital but then everything just became another black box.

Managed to purchase a Technics EPA-100 mkII to match with the Technics EPC-205mkIV cartridge on my Micro Seiki BL-99V table.  So far so good.  Not perfect yet, still tweaking.  The tonearm is very light and easily adjusted with VTA and anti-skate on the fly and the ability to adjust for compliance is very nice.  The arm seems to be in very good condition but will probably have it rebuilt soon to make sure it’s perfect.  Getting much better tracking and the imaging is very good with the EPA-100mkII although still not quite to the overall sound quality o was getting with the Saec 407/TM.   But as I said still tweaking. The bass is still a bit light compared to the Saec arm but have a lot to play with still. 
I did get a Stanton Epoch II HZ7S is excellent condition that I mounted on the Saec and wasn’t all that impressed with.  It’s OK, nice overall sound but lacks detail and imaging compared the Technics 205/IV.  Also have a Pickering XSV-4000 on the way to play with.  That should have a very nice midrange quality.  Mainly hoping to get the Technics 205/mkIV sounding its optimum with the EPA-100mkII arm.  The 205/mkIV with the Jico SAS stylus is just so good I just want to get it to sound its best.