Tube Equipment: Gimmick?

It is a very good point that opinions should be weighed against one's experience. My experience with SS has been limited to mostly very expensive boutique systems using the likes of ML and Krell amplification, thoughtfully assembled with good wires in decent listening rooms. To some of those systems I've had pretty extensive exposure. I have minimal experience listening to more esoteric SS gear though. My impressions of the better SS systems I have heard have suitably impressed me enough to keep my mind open, in spite of my recent humorous rant to the contrary (which was intended purely for entertainment). The more extensive experience I've had with an all ML system as well as a bi-amped Krell system has left me suitably impressed, but ultimately I found myself not nearly as engaged as with some of the better tube sytems I've heard and owned. I find my modest SET tube system at home more engaging than my friend's $50K Levinson system (which is no slouch by any means and has some really impressive merits). He also is more impressed by my far less expensive tube system and may switch over to tubes in the near future. His system is a master of detail and impact, but lacks the air, holgraphy and gentle grace of the SET system I prefer. I did not find his system fatiguing after prolonged listening and I have listened to it many times extensively. I've also recently owned a Pass Labs Aleph 5 which I enjoyed very much, but again, the qualities I did like about it are better expressed by tube gear. That said, in spite of being in this hobby over 20 years, I'd have to say that, considering all that is out there, my listening experiences have been quite limited in the range of possibilities. Therefore I hesitate to pass judgement so readily. Ultimately I still maintain, to each his own.

As far as film vs. digital I'll make sure to ask the next "good photographer" I meet to enlighten me on the subject.

Marco

"Oh yes, film is still more accurate than digital. Ask any good photographer"

Yeah, but in most cases a scanned neg or chrome doesn't res up as well as a good digital file. Ask and any good retoucher. :•)

Hey something just dawned on me, maybe some of the tube guys have been too long away from ss and maybe same for the ss guys.Come to think of it I haven't listened to a ss amp since that digital amp a few months back and before that at an audio show. Nothing at the show grabbed my attention like the better tube-based systems but you know how show conditions aren't always ideal for such comparisons.

Slappy I'll say this in concurrence with Jim and TWL, not all tube amps sound the same. I sure don't like rolled off highs and that bloated bass and an overly euphonic midrange that renders a sameness to the music, it gets kind of boring listening to music where there is particular “character” to the presentation. I am not knocking that sound to those that like it I just don't include myself in that group. I have owned a few of them, still have a pair of MC-60's that used to sound more in that direction before I did some mods that eliminated much of that character, got rid of the tube rectifiers and put a SS one in. It made a definite improvement in the bass but it is still a bit too tubey in the mids and the top end is not extended enough for my tastes yet sounds a lot less tubey than some of the less expensive tube designs I’ve heard over the past few years. Try to seek out a tube amp based system that doesn't use an output transformer. The Joule is a real thing of beauty, it has that sense of realness that you hear live instruments produce without the bloat and mushiness; you get the harmonics of instruments in their full glory. It takes plenty of speed for an amp to recreate this sense of realism so don’t for a minute think they can’t. As TWL notes, it is more often the fault of the transformer than any other factor in this area of tube amp performance. This harmonic realism is the one major area that SS has a tough time competing with tubes in my experience. I don't know why this is so and it doesn't seem as apparent to some listeners as others. Some that like ss are more impressed with the dynamics that a big ss amp presents. Some insist that harmonically, ss sounds better or at least the equal of a great tube amp like the Joule, I haven’t heard one come close. A comparably powered tube amp with some umph in the bottom would necessarily be a quite imposing beast to be sure but some of them can definitely go head to head with ss maybe missing a bit of that hallmark slam that Jiwitn’s Krell's definitely have.

So the bottom line to this discussion from my perspective is there are tube amps and there are tube amps, there are ss amps and I suppose there are better ss amps, the best of the current crop I haven’t listened to in a suitable well set-up system. The best of each may be closer to each other than we realize taking into consideration the speakers they will be used with and the rest of the system. The problem for me is I haven’t heard a SS amp that offers that harmonic realism that is so important to me. Maybe its out there awaiting my discovery and amazement at finding it. Or maybe no ss device can replicate what tubes do so very well which may not be important to other listeners. I try to make sense out of this ongoing debate but there is no sense to it. It seems to me, all said and done that we each hear differently and have different priorities as to what is most important in the reproduction of music otherwise things would be a lot more obvious than they are and this thread wouldn’t continue to reappear in different guises as often as it does.

Per Marco request - As a base of reference for my above comments I have listened extensively to ss amps the likes of Krell, Threshold (owned one of those), Mark Levinson, Parasound, Adcom, ARC, Forte, and Bryston. I have listened over the years to products from Pass, Gryphon, McCormack, Halcro (after 10 minutes of this system I started getting bored, what's the fuss about? Set-up I suppose) and several others I can't remember.

My favorite ss amps to date were the Threshold SA-1's which I loved and the Pass Aelph. The rest of the systems with the above components didn't move me at all except an Apogee/Adcom system from years back. Great tube systems always take hold of the emotions conveyed by music in a way that eludes SS in my experience. To me the issue isn't tubes versus SS but musical involvement. Maybe some day a SS amp will have my name on it. If it comes around, I'll buy it.

Why has no-one brought up the assertations of Cheever's MIT thesis mentioned early in this thread?? Cheever claims/proves(?) that non-negative feedback (open loop) single-ended designs, either tubed or SS, are superior in TONAL QUALITY both objectively and subjectively.

Linear triodes create pleasing LOW-ORDER (2nd, 3rd, etc) distortion, while most SS designs are plagued with nasty-sounding HIGH-ORDER (5th, 6th, and up) distortion. The physiology of our ears is such that our ears actually create 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion OF THEIR OWN in the cochlea canal. This effect serves to "cancel out" triode distortion preserving harmonic integrity. Interestingly, our ears also cancel out higher order distortion that follows a PARTICULAR PATTERN. However, most SS designs do not follow that pattern. SS may have incredibly low THD figures, but the negative feedback required to do that is what screws up the harmonic portrayal. Cheever asserts that EVEN AS LITTLE AS 3dB OF FEEDBACK will screw up the sound.

SS designs with ZERO feedback and the correct PATTERN of rising order distortion may IN THEORY sound as good as well-implemented single-ended tube designs. I'd encourage everyone to study the thesis for themselves, and post your thoughts accordingly.

Ok,

here is is, the thing i just dont get about you Tube guys.

I have repeatedly said i like tube equipment, but i prefer SS. I dont understand why people cannot accept that somebody preffers solid state amplifiers over tubes.

It seems like everyone who preffers tubes thinks that thier opinion is the only right one.

Well quite frankly, solid state has never given me listening fatigue. Maybe it is because im only 26 (27 in two weeks happy b-day me!) and my hearing is in fantastic shape and it does not fatigue me.

As for Data Numbers Testing, I know that testing is not the be-all end all. But if you set up test gear in front of the singer, and record the singing, then play it back over both forms, there will be more distortion in tube gear. Im not sayin that is a bad thing, alot of people credit that distortion to the rich full sound they are getting from tubes.

It is plain and simple, i like Solid State better. I think it is less maintenance, it saves energy (maybe not class A) and i think it sounds full, rich and involving. I like it better than Tube gear.

People like different things. That is a plain fact. Whats good for the goose is not always whats good for the gander.

Anwyays, Its too bad that alot of people seemingly cannot accept the fact that somebody preffers something different.

And to say "you just havent heared good tube gear" is just a lame statement. Does EVERYONE have to like what you like?

Hey, i like the Broncos. Does that mean if you like the Raiders that i am WRONG in liking the broncos? Does that mean that i do not have enough experience with football to appreciate the raiders?

I mean, what im basically hearing here, is that TUBE GEAR is better than Solid State gear in every aspect and everyone who does not agree with this preference is wrong.

There are alot of very intelligent and educated people on this board, i just dont understand how so many intelligent and educated people can be so naive to the fact that not eeveryone likes the same thing.

Anyways, this has just gotten dumb.

IF you all think im WRONG for liking SS gear, if you think i am getting listening fatigue when i know that i am not, then thats fine. go ahead and delude yourselves, obviously you know everything and have some sort of GOD like power to know that i get tired of listening to my crappy rig, cause i know i sure can listen to it forever without getting tired of it.

Why cant people just enjoy what they enjoy?

This is like a audiophile version of the christian crusades.

I like Dogs. I like Tbone Steak, I like fords, i like Budweiser, i like Blues, i like rock, i like reading, I like watching action movies. I like getting high and watching cheetas taking down gazelles on the discovery channel. I like working with my hands, i like drawing, i like scuplting, i like power tools, i like working out, and damnit, i like solid state amplifiers.

So, with that list, is there anything else im WRONG about liking?

I think im about done in this forum. I have all the respect in the world for tube gear, and i have all the respect in the world for your preference of tube gear. But im a SS man myself.

Peace! :)