Dear friends: As other people in this thread already showed there are several contradictions on almost any post by dertonarm and that's why I posted that he is a non trusty chameleon opinion ( at least on these subjects/regards. ). Here are other contradictions on what he stated in this thread:
he applaud the SME V ( I own this tonearm and this is not the point but what he said in two post on the same subject. ):
+++++++ They did not give this very precise figure out of the blue........
SME took for granted all industry standards of its day (early 1980ies) and said:
"well, if all cartridge designers do obey to and follow the standards given and if all LPs are cut following the new IEC standard, then evrything will be perfect with our new tonearm - it will be the "best tonearm in the world"............"
But the world is an imperfect one and many people do want to go their own ways.
The new SME surely was the LEAST UNIVERSAL tonearm ever designed .......
The SME V was a child of its day and was regarded when introduced as the first tonearm which took all (some of them fairly new...) industry standards for record-cutting and cartridge dimensions serious.
Too serious. ++++++++
now on the Davinci/azymuth where he favored against this thread where we " don't need it anymore but because marketing it came incorporated in its tonearm ". Here start about:
+++++ Dear Halcro, you can not compensate azimuth offset with balance control. Azimuth offset means - always! - a misalignment of the stylus towards BOTH groove walls. This has to be fixed at the source. You can mask the sonic result to some degree (in fact only the channel imbalance.. ) with the balance control, but the problem remains and it will shorten both - the life-time of your stylus AND records.
Aside from the sonic presentation (soundstage width and depth and high frequency reproduction) which does suffer too.
To fix this issue, do get AND use very thin plastic washers (sometimes part of cartridge screws by-pack assembly) to eliminate the problem where it occurs. +++++
and he followed:
+++++ Correct azimuth is a must and is determined by the position of the stylus in the groove and towards both walls. Thus a headshell level (spirit bubble or not....) has little to no use as Dougdeacon and Essentialaudio already mentioned correctly.
The problem has to be fixed at the source - you can not "correct" a misalignment of azimuth anywhere else in the chain - only at the stylus.
If the stylus is not 100% vertical in relation to the upper plane of the mounting cartridge body, you need a headshell which can be rotated in its axis - at least to some degree.
Its an imperfect world - thus we need alignments.... " +++++
and he followed:
+++++ " Sorry folks - azimuth-adjustment in real world conditions has to be (and can only be ..) done by the one single instrument most audiophiles seems do trust the very least.
The ear........+++++
but now he is in love with SME and with the today " perfect audio world where we don't need alignments"!!!!!! ( his words not mine. )
There are several other examples on these and other subjects with the same contradictory opinions in the same subject where Dertonarm try to defend or try to impose his opinion at any " cost ", including his own lose credibility. Of course that he did/do that always thinking that all of us are absolutely 100% " ignorants " but him that has the " light ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Lewm, Grandezza tonearm (I have one, in rhodium) is only named after an Italian, albeit a genius as in Leonardo, i presume. My motorcycle is very special limited edition (MH900E) with no miles (Italian), put away. My three road race bicycles, (full italian), have no odometers, so I ride ... plus I feel any accumulated miles are on me! I have not had an Italian girlfriend, yet .... when I do find her, I hope she cooks!! Sorry for the Italy detour:) |
Dear Dover: +++++ " Another problem I have seen many many times is caused by armboards that are not perfectly level and referenced to the platter " +++++
agree, several times.
Other reasons for the needs on azymuth control/tool: is there cero tolerance in the " flat " cartridge top plate? or cero tolerance in the tonearm headshell plate? or cero tolerance in the tonearm it self alignment: it is dead straigth? and we can go on and on on the subject.
Dertonarm said that in 12 years he did not found out any cartridge with trouble about, he is really lucky!. If we assume that he tested 1 cartridge by day then he tested around 4K cartridges ( or maybe only 600. ) when in those 12 years the cartridge universe was several hundred thousands of cartridges and counting.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Mesael
Taking about "out of topic", I once asked Dertoarm what tonearm should I get... You did W-H-A-T ? You asked HIM? Oh, my God.. Didn't you know this is Blasphemy? Not everywhere but in some southern states... Regards and enjoy the music :-) |
Correction please, Grandezza are Swiss made, just sound Italian maybe.
Cheers, |
Dear Gentlemans: Now that all we know that azymuth is no need it at all and that the Grandezza is now a " classic " due that is a defunct item I want to share with you my additional thoughts about:
the azymuth subject IMHO can't be take it as if the stylus is dead on: 90° or not but if we need this tonearm tool or not ( I posted that are several reasons about. ).
I think there are good reasons to ask for it in any tonearm, I will name some of them and you can think on other ones. One of these reasons is that the cartridge stylus ( even in a perfect set-up. ) has no the same wear on both sides of the tip due that what is recorded in each side groove is different and the stylus tip " suffer " different wear/degradation about over time so over time we will need to adjust azymuth to be down " there " on traget ( this kind of stylus-tip wear came with differences on bot sides when we don't take enough care cleaning perfefctly the stylus tip at each LP side we listening. Stylus dust makes a lot of harm, you can't imagine. ).
Other reason, during the proccess to stamp 5k or 10K LPs not all the 5K or 10K LP stamped with the same " stamp 2 are " cutted " the same and I mean " side by side ", in several of those LPs are differences where we need to adjust cartridge azymuth.
Other reason could be that the cutter-head amplifiers have tiny gain differences that we can fix with that tonearm tool.
Now, any one of you lately measured your amplifier or phono stage or line stage or phonolinestagepreamp or even speakers gain/output on both channels? if not please do it and you will find out differences between both channels ( different levels on it. ). Yes you can fix it through a preamp balance control or if your preamp has two independent continuos volume controls ( stepped ones does not works here. ): what if you can't do it through your preamp? well azymuth control can help.
Now, all that happen with a perfect cartridge/tonearm set up but this perfect set-up just does not exist. We are imperfect and audio belongs to imperfections at each single step in the whole audio chain so we need as many " controls " we can achieve to fix or at least try to lower all those audio imperfections.
So IMHO we have to take that azymuth subject in the whole audio system context.
Now, the cartridge build is made it by hand and we are imperfect and as we are imperfect as imperfections ( tiny tiny ones. ) are in the cartridges. That some cartridge manufacturers have 100% quality control does not means that all manufacturers are the same and does not means that that few top manufacturers have as a target not 0.00001% of tolerances but CERO tolerances: this even does not exist because the tools to do it does not exist yet. When these cartridge build tools exist and the cartridge were builded by mechanic robots then we could have a perfect cartridge not before. This is IMHO true on cartridges and in other audio items.
Need we azymuth/anti skate tonearm controls because the " market is asking for " ? NO we need it because are a useful tools and we need it to fix ( lowering. ) " imperfections ".
Can I be wrong?, could be but as any one of you this is my take in the whole subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Lbelchev, I have had the 10.5 for over a year and I am verry happy with it. Still have the a Triplanar VII and took it off my Raven AC several month ago (was running two tonearms).
I have not heard the DaVinci but it was on my short list. They show up used once in a while. I still plan on getting another arm and I will sell the TriPlanar. At this point the DaVinci is no longer on my short list. I think there are other arms that are more interesting to me e.g. the Talea. Plus if the new DaVinci is much more adjustable and becomes loved I have to wonder how the old models will be viewed?
TD
Hope that helps |
Like most things Italian, the Grandezza is simply gorgeous. "Simply" is the operative word, too. I am thankful that it is so expensive that I cannot be tempted to buy one. For 95,000 more US dollars, I can have a used Ferrari. |
Dear Lbelchev: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1319419660&openflup&40&4#40
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Measel, you asked me between the Phantom and Grandezza - and made your decision based on looks.
Which is perfectly fine and the Grandezza is a nice tonearm with very aesthetic looks.
I recommended the DaVinci Grandezza here under different conditions and with a different contender.
And I did so based on performance, looks and prospective future value.
Enjoy your Grandezza.
I have listen to the DaVinci on various occasions in 4 set-ups of seasoned audiophiles and Audiogoners.
It was never an insult to my ears ..;-) ....
I have a Grand Grandezza 12" rhodium plated finish in my small collection.
It is not in use, but it sure looks beautiful. |
Taking about "out of topic", I once asked Dertoarm what tonearm should I get, DaVinci Grandezza or Phantom ? He told me to get Phantom, but I get the Grandezza. Why ? Because it looks so good.
Now the OP asked TW or Grandezza? And Derto choose Grandezza.
Hidden agenda? No, that just his opinion.
Am I right and he is wrong? I don't know , because I haven't try Phantom yet. But I'm grateful to him cause he took time to answer my email.
Regards, |
I'm looking (like Luna) for the impressions of the Audiogoners about two tonearms (this is the reason that I'm in this tread).
Instead, we get great information about coil output, electrical behaviour, stylus alignment, asymuth,RIAA curve... Thanks.
Please, if someone have experience with TW Acustic 10.5 and DaVinci Grandezza (on Raven), let share his impressions. I consider and Phantom Ultimate, but it will be out of topic ;-)
Thank you in advance. |
Dertonam et al,
Another problem I have seen many many times is caused by armboards that are not perfectly level and referenced to the platter resulting in vertical bearings off level and the arm running uphill or downhill. Antiskate has been used to compensate for this incorrectly. How many people run a dial gauge over the platter and armboard to check the allignment - a simple and worthwhile exercise before mounting arms. Any TT with a wooden armboard is a nightmare in this respect. |
Sorry for the typo ...;-) ... glad the message still arrived. |
Alastair Robertson-Aikman, the founder of SME not Robert Atkinson. |
Dear Dover, thank you for the kind comment. I must admit, that the positive correspondence with Audiogoners far outnumbers - and out-weights the unimportant negative feedback and insults by people whom - based on their style as well as their apparent lack of background - I can't take serious anyway.
Especially so, as there still are a lot of seasoned audiophiles who do take their passion really serious in a positive way and strive for real improvement.
It can't be a mistake to try to take as many points into account as possible when trying to get the maximum of performance out of any set-up.
In analog front-end there still are way too many "uncertainties" and aziumth adjustment - as well as anti-skating and the back ground of skating force - is IMHO taken way too easy.
My reservations here are a matter of "field experience".
There are just too many used cartridges out there with disorientated cantilever to believe that the correct application of anti-skating is a solved issue.
And there are way too many cartridges - and I mean cartridges from manufacturers where I KNOW that the stylus is correct placed - "azimuth corrected" mounted (i.e. NOT in parallel to the record's surface in front view).
I would bet that a good portion of those cartridges is mounted in good faith with "azimuth correction", but in fact the motivation was raised by sample inherent channel in-balance and/or misalignment.
We do not need to turn to DaVinci here.
The SME V is a real reference standard since 30 years now.
Robert Atkinson's team had some real good engineers around.
They knew what they were doing.
And they knew why they did not include aziumth adjustment as a feature.
It was discussed widely back then when the eagerly awaited SME V was finally introduced.
From the engineer's point of view the concept was correct.
You assume that the tires you are buying for your car are round - if they aren't, you can't blame the car for not having an adjustment to adapt for that.
You insist on a perfect round tyre which is just as easy a task as a perfect 90° stylus on a cantilever.
So why accepting it in analog audio?
I still think it is a valid request to accept any new cartridge with a dead 90° stylus only.
And I think that manufacturer's who really care about their product - Jonathan Carr for instance - will agree. |
Hey Raul,
I know heaps, I've forgotten heaps and I'm sure there is always opportunity to learn more. What's wrong with thanking someone for putting time and effort into explaining their experiences.
By the way with regard to the RIAA curve, since you are a manufacturer of phono stages, the comments I made on an earlier other thread were slightly askew. The RIAA standards require amplifiers that drive the cutterheads to apply compression and expansion above and below 1000hz. The engineers could not build amplifiers in those days to do that and In actual fact you will find the turnover points are actually around 400hz and ( I cant remember the figure ) but around 4000hz. This means for accurate reproduction of RIAA recordings you actually need a flat midrange at around 400hz to 4khz.
As stated earlier I have a mathemetician/engineer mate who has modelled this revised RIAA playback in an op amp based phono stage ( not your normal stuff, the op amps used are next generation designs not yet available to manufacturers ) and the organic wholeness of the midrange is revelatory.
Ironically you could drive the cutterheads far more accurately today as regards RIAA compression/expansion with digital amps.
Cheers,
|
Dear Dover: Are you serious? how is that a 20+ years " professional " high end audio distributor today " discover " " coil output/electrical behavior and stylus alignment vs azymuth ? what was or what kind of support and advise gave all those years to your customers? no one asked?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dertonam,
Just a quick note to say thank you for your input. Whilst we all may have differing views, your posts above raising the questions on coil output, electrical behaviour and stylus alignment vs asymuth are thought provoking and add significantly more to the discussion than comments such as "blah blah blah" and he said/she said type arguments.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain your views, some of us appreciate that. |
Hey Dertonarm, do not get it so seriously - just a joke.
I'm not surprised. If the probleme again is in the reading, it is not there. Apparently the problem is in the writing.
I'm not in any "fan-groups" (unlike somebody here)!!
I have absolutely no interest in azimuth - no matter with or without fine calibrated scale !!
So, to return to the Lunas question - TW-Acustic Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza?
Your answer is: "The DaVinci will be a future classic - for design and performance and is THE single component which has put DaVinci on the map."
My two cents - Yes, but this future classic single super component has very short life - it is out of production !!
Best regards,
Lyubo
|
Dear Lewm, these shots aren't digitalised yet, but I will try my best and send you a few shots by PM in a few days.
And - oh, yes ... you will clearly see disproportional wear on one of the stylus.
BTW - due to "azimuth adjustment" ......
No, I can't tell by mere eyesight whether a stylus is 90° dead vertical.
And I haven't stated in this thread that I can.
That's why I conducted a survey.
In general - in general ... - it no longer a problem today in NEW cartridges.
But get a cartridge from "demo" or used and you will find a hell of a lot with displaced/disorientated cantilever due to erratic applied anti-skating and/or disproportional worn stylus. |
Dear Wrm57, no, anti-skating is necessary - depending on the cartridge, stylus shape, compliance and VTF, geometry of tonearm and effective length of tonearm and thus resulting off-set.
There are tonearm/cartridge combinations where anti-skating in mandatory and there are certain tonearm/cartridge combinations where anti-skting compensation is obsolete.
It depends - such I have incorporated an anti-skating compensation.
An unique one. |
Dear DT, After all the times I wrote my contrary opinion and all the times you seemed to agree with me, are you saying once again that you can tell by visual inspection of a cartridge that it will have "perfect" azimuth, i.e., that 90 degrees of azimuth will extract the best crosstalk results? Because I still think that notion is dead wrong. It certainly is a good thing if the stylus and cantilever appear perfectly aligned, but it tells you nothing about the alignment of the coils with the magnet structure, the major determinant of variation in crosstalk. If you can tell me why I am incorrect, I am willing to learn something.
I would love to see an EM photo of a cartridge stylus. With any decent EM set to its lowest magnification, the surface of a stylus tip would look like a vast plain such as we have here east of the Rocky Mts. However, it seems to me one would be too close (the magnification would be too high) to tell much about stylus shape and degree of wear, kind of like identifying an elephant by feeling its tail while blindfolded. |
Kdl, see - I am a pacifist and practicing martial arts since 30 years.
Is this a contradiction and does it mean preaching one thing and doing the other?
If something is beyond one's capability one shouldn't try to judge.
I have incorporated azimuth adjustment in my tonearm - and in a way no one else has done before - because of "customer's request" indeed.
To address all possible requirements - not because I personally need it.
Furthermore to show how it can be done better than before.
I believe in nothing which would tell you anything.
The simplicity of a judgement reflects the mind of the originator.
As William Blake put it so nicely over 2 centuries ago "the eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow".
Take it the way you like to. |
Dertonarm, this is really blowing the wind hard. My tonearm too does feature azimuth adjustment (in fact with fine calibrated scale that is - so one will always get back to precisely set positions) - as you will see in 4 months here pictured on Audiogon. What you are saying is very simple. In theory (or in an ideal audio world), azimuth adjustment on an arm is not necessary. But in reality or from a marketing point of view (if that's the case for you to try to sell der tonarm), it's necessary to have, and you even make it more refined which by itself might be a good thing, although you didn't go as far as what Talea did. Basically you are saying one thing and doing another. What you believe (if you have one) is not what you are going to behave. Very misleading say the least. Better put some disclaimer as other dealers or makers do on your future post before you have a brand: maker of Uni-XXX |
Dertonarm, so do you also think anti-skate is unnecessary? I'm not asking in order to stoke an argument. I respect your knowledge and experience in vinyl, so I'm curious about your opinion on this subject, which is also somewhat controversial. |
Dear Lbelchev, you will be surprised, but again the key problem is reading.
Perrew asked for my opinion what constitutes a good tonearm.
I said above the DaVinci sounds good (if aligned exactly) and that it does represent a better value ( particular in future sale on the used market ) than the other contender.
About azimuth adjustment, I said above it should not be necessary ..... and that I respect Brehm's point of view.
My tonearm too does feature azimuth adjustment (in fact with fine calibrated scale that is - so one will always get back to precisely set positions) - as you will see in 4 months here pictured on Audiogon.
Still very interesting to see, how very few - of the "fan-groups", as well as the more smart ones here - seem to have a problem in the first with misplaced stylus.
Did I miss something here and is it indeed an inevitable law of nature?
Or were we just told for so long it is?
I am realizing that I fight a rather lonely battle here - but no problem, I am used to it.
Following one of SJ's key phrases automatically leads to this.
So - who's next ? |
I think azimuth is a must for Der :-) 06-24-09: Perrew
D
what in your opinion constitutes a good tonearm?
06-24-09: Dertonarm
Dear Perrew, in no particular order:
- dynamic balanced design (I consider this a must !),
- adjustable overhang and AZIMUTH,
- very rigid construction - resulting in good energy and vibration handling,
- 10" minimum effective length to get below 2 degrees error,
I believe these are among the few key features of any great pivot tonearm design. All truely great pivot tonearms do have these 4 in common (except the Graham Phantom - which I would include in my list).
Cheers,
D.
Dertonarm |
Dear Rockitman, dear Lewm, in the early 2000s the Denon DL-103R was introduced.
I bought over a span of about 18 months a total of 46 samples.
Denon - as always - does include it's nice plotted frequency response with the output of both channels in mV.
The output did differ over a range from as low as 0.23mV up to 0.42mV.
Out of these 46 samples - which did came in 3 batches - 4 samples showed absolutely identical output on both coils.
At least identical to 0.005 mV.
Each of these 4 samples sounded VERY different to all the other 42 samples.
Much better than any of the other 42.
In terms of soundstage dimensions, extension and rock solid imaging during crescendi they were the equal of cartridges costing 20x as much.
Each of these 4 samples would have made a excellent example for the 50+ years of fame this particular cartridge enjoys.
Needless to say - each of these 46 samples had a 90° on spot stylus - judged by eyesight.
With the 4 "prime samples" and 4 others I had them examined with an electron-microscope to confirm what mere eyesight and sound did suggest - no derivation from 90° vertical.
With a then US$180 cartridge.
All top performing cartridges where I had a chance to examine their respective output of the coils did show VERY good matched coils indeed.
My cartridge manufacturer would do us a great favor by including a test sheet with the individual output of the coils, source impedance and their inductance ( with LOMCs in particular).
I believe - and have found exactly that on many occasions (read: set-up's in private audio systems ) - that most "azimuth corrections" were in fact stimulated by noticeable unbalanced output, - but ascribed to a misplaced stylus.
I am not a fan of the DaVinci, but I respect Brehm's point of view.
Having had a brief audition to his cartridge - which is dead on 90° of course - I see why his statement was made.
If - IF - all cartridge manufacturers out there would do their work as promised ( I know that Lyra, Ikeda, Denon, AT/Signet, Ortofon do ), there simply should be no need for azimuth adjustment.
Especially so, as - by the sheer frequency it is mentioned and apparently "applied" - it often is used without need and by error.
As is anti-skating.
The large portion of misplaced cantilever in used market cartridges speaks a clear statement here.
A statement which should now promote the thread even further ....;-) ... |
D: All that in good shape. IMHO we don't need clouds to create confussion we need " clean " facts that help everyone to understand where we are seated that is the real world and not where we desire to be seated that's today is only a good hope or dream.
R. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.
" +++++
as always only " bla, bla, bla, " where you are very good but with out any real facts that prove with certain that your statements are true. In almost no one of your statements against the Raven and in favor of the Grandezza you give any certain facts that gives foundation true foundation on what you stated.
This is your " history " always. If we take the link on the Raven tonearm that posted Kdl we can read a post from Ttttt where he made a specific question:
++++Dertonarm,
Just to get back to the market situation:
What are the technical issues in tonearm design? ++++
and as always you made a " history " ( a long one because you are a good " chuildren teller " tales. ) with no specifc answer and this is what Ttttt posted about:
++++ Dertonarm,
Thanks for the explanations of the Graham an Wheaton. I already knew the details. That is not my point and a different story.
I am asking you, because you are claiming to have the superior knowledge in this case. " ++++++
In the other side and now that you already ( as always too. ) put some " clouds " on the main Raven/Grandezza subject in this thread you don't answer the other limitation on the Grandezza that you dimished: anti-skate, which is your " history " here on why is not need it.
All people here are waiting for your answer and I hope no more dark clouds in your posts but facts proved facts that on the azymuth subject you did not because IMHO you have nothing on hand other than your " tales ".
This is not the first time, as we can read on that link and in other Raven treads, you are in conflict in a " personal " manner with Raven in the same way you showed the same personal conflict with Schroeder tonearm and Frank it self, so how much of what you said about is really true ( even with out facts ) and not only your internal/self/mind conflict with Raven as happened with Scroeder? IMHO in this regard you are full non-trusty with non-trusty opinions.
Of course that you are wise enough to leave out that " conflict " and give a non-biased opinion that like other people opinions always is welcomed.
regards and enjoyy the music,
R. |
10-27-11: Lewm
Dear Rockitman,
If you want to use your own tools to adjust for azimuth, I do not think it is as simple as Dertonearm implies. You also need a pure test tone on an LP (usually 1kHz will suffice, but if you are fanatical you could use more than one frequency, and ideally a notch filter to get rid of spurious noise above and below the test frequency. This is why Fozgometer sells. You zero out both channels for equal gain. Then you play a test signal on one channel only. Measure voltage. Call that "0db". Now play the same test signal into the same channel and measure voltage that appears on the opposite channel. That will be a much smaller voltage, hopefully. Convert that into db, which will be a negative number, like -20db or lower. This is "crosstalk". Do the same in reverse. You will have two values of crosstalk in terms of negative db. Now play with azimuth and see how the values change. Some like to adjust for equal crosstalk in both channels. Some others like to adjust for lowest possible crosstalk, regardless of whether the numbers are equal in value. (I have always observed that I can get less crosstalk if I settle for unequal crosstalk. For example, I might be able to get -25db in both channels at 1 kHz. But if I just shoot for least crosstalk, I might get two values of say -28db and -30db. Life is funny that way.)
Dear Lewm. I own a Fozgometer and a few test records with the 1 kHz tone and do use it to set azimuth. My inquiry with Dertonarm related to the coil output voltages (Channel Balance) and whether the output is equal on both channels of the cart in question. |
Dear Lewm, maybe I wasn't not clear on that one: with oscillating pad I was referring to an oscillating pad indeed - i.e. those pads do oscillate with frequencies between 400 and 2.5kHz.
During oscillation that frequency is transmitted into the coils - thus you have the very same effect as if tracking a groove.
Just doing so w/o actually tracking the groove and thus it is the "raw" coil response.
Back in the 1980s we had a nice comment about azimuth adjustment: "if you can feel or see the adjustment, - then you've already gone too far".
In other words - IF your stylus/cantilever is off the vertical ideal, it will most likely be by such a small degree, that any alternation by hand will cure it only by dump luck.
The problem is an entirely different game however if we are talking about used/second hand cartridges.
As the "art of aligning" a cartridge is a rarely taught and understood one, we will find a large portion of second hand cartridges with unbalanced worn stylus AND - most often - slightly bend/misaligned cantilever due to wrong adjusted antiskating.
I have had the pleasure to examine and listen to about 160 audio set-ups in private home sin the past 30+ years.
Including the set-ups of quite some respectable audio reviewers.
In England, the US (including HP's set-up in Sea Cliff two times in the late 1980s and early 1990s) , France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, HongKong and Mexico ( ...;-) ...).
Prices for these set-up ranged from about 20k$ to 2.8million$.
Now don't ask me in how many of these set-ups the alignment of the cartridge/tonearm was entirely correct ( not sound wise - geometrical I mean) in all parameters.
I am not referring to tangential alignment only - I mean VTF, azimuth ( ...;-) ...), most often anti skating, not even to mention groove compliant VTA/SRA.
Funny thing here however is, that I get the impression that a good portion of the audiophiles simply cope with misplaced stylus as if it were a fact of nature and beyond the reach of mankind to ensure that all top-dollar cartridge feature a dead 90° stylus.
This might either be "german" nature to insist on quality and technical flawless components when it is possible.
And it is easy possible here.
If one reads slowly and careful the posts in this thread, it is obvious that I did from the start note that azimuth adjustment SHOULDN'T be needed at all.
But apparently many audiophiles are just happy enough that any sound is coming out of their set-up at all and take lousy quality control and careless manufacturer as a penalty from higher forces laid upon the poor and miserable audiophile to suffer in the painful valley on earth.
And - by all means - forget a microscope here.
I have a bunch of good microscope photographs of worn stylus here in my files - these were taken with electron-microscopes and in special aligned settings.
Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.
I really wonder if we would had this discussion here at all if we were talking about the spillage of cars.
No one - absolutely no one here would accept misaligned spillage in one's new car. |
Dear Rockitman,
If you want to use your own tools to adjust for azimuth, I do not think it is as simple as Dertonearm implies. You also need a pure test tone on an LP (usually 1kHz will suffice, but if you are fanatical you could use more than one frequency, and ideally a notch filter to get rid of spurious noise above and below the test frequency. This is why Fozgometer sells. You zero out both channels for equal gain. Then you play a test signal on one channel only. Measure voltage. Call that "0db". Now play the same test signal into the same channel and measure voltage that appears on the opposite channel. That will be a much smaller voltage, hopefully. Convert that into db, which will be a negative number, like -20db or lower. This is "crosstalk". Do the same in reverse. You will have two values of crosstalk in terms of negative db. Now play with azimuth and see how the values change. Some like to adjust for equal crosstalk in both channels. Some others like to adjust for lowest possible crosstalk, regardless of whether the numbers are equal in value. (I have always observed that I can get less crosstalk if I settle for unequal crosstalk. For example, I might be able to get -25db in both channels at 1 kHz. But if I just shoot for least crosstalk, I might get two values of say -28db and -30db. Life is funny that way.) |
Dertonearm, I guess it is fair to say that misinformed persons might play with azimuth to correct channel imbalance, but one hopes such persons would soon learn the folly of their ways. As to your second statement, I don't often look at styli with a microscope, so I take your word for it that they are seldom mispositioned, but I have seen many a "high end" cartridge with slightly off-center cantilevers or cantilevers that are at an angle with respect to the mid-line of the cartridge body. In any case, none of these visual cues are sufficient to make one sanguine about azimuth, because the misalignment that necessitates azimuth adjustment is usually not visible by external inspection, even with a microscope, as I wrote before. It's a matter of how the coils align with the magnet structure. |
TW ACUSTIC 10.5 better built much better sounding |
Dear Glai: I think your post gives very good " light " for Luna.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
German seller means:Dertonarm. |
Dear Kdl: Thank's for that link that confirm again all what is behind this German seller.
How missed I that thread?, two first pages are " great " and the Halcro post remembered/remind that heavy/ colossal trashing that M. Kelly infringe Dertonarm in a tonearm subject where Dertonarm think is " God " was memorable for say the least. Like here trying to defend the undefendable only because " his ignorance level say so ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
To the origin OP,
I have owned both arms: TW 10.5 an a 12inch Davinci. I tried both arms with 4-5 carts. Of these two, I would pick the TW over the 12inch Davinci.
On the sonic side, I feel the 12inch Davinci slows the transient attack slightly and imbue the sound with rich wood tone. This translate into "luxorious" listening experience which some people like but not what I am after. The TW is able to portray a wider contrast betw the different carts.
On the ergo side, I prefer to have Azimuth adjustments to tease out the last degree of channel separation. I dislike the VTA adjustment on the Davinci. For upward VTA adjustment, YOu need to loosen up the clamp screw and manually lift the arm pillar. While holding the arm pillar, adjust a side screw to touch the arm base in order to support the arm pillar . Now slowly twist the screw to decrease VTA. After that, fasten the clamp, twist the side screw so it no longer touches the arm base. I don't insist on VTA on the fly. Arms like centroid, dyna 507 don't have VTA on the fly but still much more convenient and repeatable. The antiskate is call magnetic dumping in the Davinci if I understand correctly. For some carts, I could not dial in enough antiskate for the 12 inch arm. I suspect the skating force is applied at the stylus tip which translate into more torque for the antiskate mechanism to contend with.
If I have to get the Davinci again, I would rather have 9inch or 10inch for lower effective mass and hopefully better transient reproduction. The 9 or 10inch may also allow for azimuth adjustment.
The new design may have corrected for a lot of the inconveniences I mention.
Good luck |
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Dear Rockitman, your procedure is correct the way you described it. |
I need neither hype nor (pre-)laurels.
As I am not looking for a share of the market I have no need for either.
I've designed this tonearm for myself - and a few friends.
Whether others will like it or not is utterly unimportant.
In fact - I would be disappointed if I do not get fierce opposition by the mere sight of my design.
Don't let me down ...;-) ..... |
10-26-11: Dertonarm
TW 10.5 ...;-) ... within Germany the history of that "german tonearm" is much better known than in the USA.
Read careful what you are quoting.
I took position against the "pre-introduction hype and laurels" - for good reason.
All the TW fan group - and a few others will have a great time this late winter when my tonearm is introduced.
But relax - the price will put it out of reach for most, 70% of the limited edition is already sold prior to launch and it requests some really serious turntables to be mounted.
You'll have fun. Is this qualified for "pre-introduction hype and laurels" by yourself? :) |
Dear Der, if I went the oscilloscope route, is my explanation of the process to measure voltage on a cart correct ? |
Dear Rockitman, I meant an oscillating pad - like the Nagaoka stylus cleaner or similar.
Then you need a µV meter.
An Oscilloscope isn't necessary, but nice to have anyway.
Yes, - you are measuring the output of each coil in µV/mV. |
Kdl, I am not "defending the undefendable", but trying (apparently futile with some ..but no problem with that either ) to show, that azimuth adjustment is a bit more tricky and demanding than most think.
And it often leads in the wrong direction.
Give me a reason why we should accept cartridges with a mispositioned stylus.
And don't tell me we have to because it is a fact of life.
It is not a fact - it is the exception and showing ill product quality - and there is no reason to accept a lousy manufactured product.
At least - not for me.
Period.
You won't find a NIB Lyra cartridge with a mispositioned stylus - and you won't find a NOS FR-7 series cartridge of 30+ years with a mispositioned stylus.
TW 10.5 ...;-) ... within Germany the history of that "german tonearm" is much better known than in the USA.
Read careful what you are quoting.
I took position against the "pre-introduction hype and laurels" - for good reason.
I am not particular crazy about that tonearm - because I see and hear no reason to do so.
The tonearm is o.k. and not cheap - no more, no less.
Period.
Sorry to have hurt the feelings of part of the fan-group.
You may have your doubts - as everyone who has no 1st-hand information.
You may ask a few TW 10.5 users (about 4 in the US do have an UNI-template for their TW 10.5 - I do everything on customer's request ...) - they will confirm that their 10.5 sounds in no way worse with "my" template.
All the TW fan group - and a few others will have a great time this late winter when my tonearm is introduced.
But relax - the price will put it out of reach for most, 70% of the limited edition is already sold prior to launch and it requests some really serious turntables to be mounted.
You'll have fun. |
10-26-11: Dertonarm
Rockitman, all you need is an oscillating pad and a µV meter - that's it.
The technical straight way to determine coil output independent from stylus position/mounting position.
This way you get the raw coil response - totally independent of any position of the polished area to a groove.
So you mean an Oscilloscope ? And if so, is it simply a matter of connecting the Oscilloscope ground clip to the ground on the left channel and the hot clip (+) to the positive (hot) on the left channel and measuring the voltage, then doing the same for the right channel and then comparing the two to see if the voltages match ? I don't have much Oscilloscope use experience. Just trying to undertsand how I would go about measuring the voltages. |
Dertonarm, you are stretching miles to defend the undefendable and might end up in the woods. We are not living in a perfect audio world. Azimuth adjustment available on the arm should be a better solution (although not cost effective for 5K arm) in the unfortunate event when needed than using tiny washers between head shell and cartridge (which is very cost effective for 11K arm).
BTW, your preset opinion against the German arm on the Subject is well documented in another discussion even before its availability and the availability of Uni-Pro as well.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1263686265&openfrom&1&4&&st50
Guess what's really count counts, that's why Uni-Pro has a template for the relative new German arm in the subject. My doubts are whether the template provided by Uni-Pro can be trusted. |
Dear Lewm, I know it is crosstalk - nevertheless, give my proposition a thought and muse about what is the motivation in most set-ups to start "adjusting" azimuth ?
In other words - I for one haven't seen a mispositioned (i.e. anything else than dead 90° vertical) stylus in the last 12 years on ANY new cartridge.
So .... why do we adjust azimuth then ? |
