2. amps-preamps
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Upgrade advice needed

Let me tell you my story.

Piece by piece, I've been gradually building an audiophile quality system.

My system is a Toshiba Laptop w/ J River playing FLAC files into a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2. The laptop is dedicated exclusively as a music server. I've stripped most of the background processes from the Laptop and disconnected from the internet. The only external connections are the USB line to the DAC and a Mouse connected by the other USB connector

I don't have a preamp, the W4S DAC has onboard volume control.

I'm using a NAD 356 BEE Integrated amp but bypassing the preamp module and routing the DAC input directly to the power amp. The speakers are Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grands. I use LAT International SS-800 MkII 6 ft speaker cords and Pangea AC-14, 14 Gauge after market power cords for the NAD amp and the DAC. I installed Albert Porter Outlets. I do not have any power conditioners.

I live in an apartment so room treatments and dedicated circuit wires are out.

Musical tastes are primarily chamber music and some classic jazz of 1950s and 60s.

I listen near field - 6 feet from speakers and prefer moderate volume. I don't have much interest in Home theater or television in general.

My biggest source of frustration is the reproduction of violins and pianos. I recently ripped a CD of Bachs Violin Sonatas by Arthur Grumiaux. The sound is so harsh a cannot listen for more then 10 minutes.

My issue with pianos is the percussive aspect of the instrument seems to overwhelm the musical tone. I have a collection of Chopin Polonaises and it sounds like the artist is playing the piano keys with a hammer.

Other instruments sound better -- Cellos, brass, woodwinds, vocals.

I'm wondering what the next step in my upgrade evolution should be. I been intrigued by the First Watt line of amps. They seem to be a good fit for me. But, I don't know, will that address my issues with violins?

I could spend up to 5K now and, perhaps a year from now, I could swing another 5K for the next component

I'd welcome any suggestions.
128x128cjk5933
cjk5933's avatar
cjk5933 OP
23 posts
 
06-27-14: Meiwan
If you are looking to upgrade, stop using the W4S as a pre-amp, it's a good DAC but not a good pre-amp.
06-27-14: Mapman
Focus on the DAC and pre-amp.

At this point, maybe consider adding a tube DAC or tube pre-amp for that type of music in particular if still not clicking.
06-27-14: Jmcgrogan2
I agree with Meiwan, just use the W4S as a DAC and get a nice tube integrated amp and use it's preamp inputs.
06-27-14: Elizabeth
I would suggest a good quality tubed preamp in there. Your treble sucks.. So a tube preamp and a power conditioner.

Thank you for the response. I guess I was naive. I thought with a well regarded DAC and some attention to the computer configuration, the front end would take care of itself.
My instinct was to remove as much circuitry from the signal path as possible, ie; the less components, the less noise, distortion, etc. One thing I liked about the W4S DAC was the volume control. It seemed like an opportunity to remove the preamp from the signal path.

I think I'll go back to the forums and start looking again at discussions about preamps

I suppose there are two philosophical views here. One perspective is to simplify the signal path as much as possible. First Watt seems to have made that the basis of their design philosophy. To me, that's a very persuasive idea

The other view seems to accept noise and distortion as unavoidable and pursues the objective of reproducing the music by moderating the deficiencies of one component by the strengths of the next component in the sound chain.

06-27-14: Jmcgrogan2
It would also help to switch to just plain copper speaker cables. LAT's Silverfuse alloy is mixing silver with copper, which will help enhance brightness and harshness. They even talk on their website about the warmth and mellowness of copper, but they "add" the clarity and definition of silver. The silver is part of the problem. It may work alright with a tube integrated amp, but you may find that just switching to pure copper cable may help alleviate much of the harshness you are experiencing.
06-27-14: Elizabeth
.... cables matter too. I found Kimber Hero for balanced. And Cardas Parsec for RCA to be the best bangs for the buck.

Good insight about the silver. When I purchased the Vienna Acoustic speakers I thought I should get something better then the Monster cord I had been using. These were available used and locally at a very low price. I didn't give it much more thought because I've always been skeptical of the claims (and price) made here for IC, power cords, etc.

I've always thought once you get above a the minimum baseline of quality, the claims and subtle distinctions between types and brands of cords seemed dubious.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,563 posts
 
CJ,

Thing is when something is not working as hoped and you have options in-house already, try them first before buying more.

That includes addressing room acoustics by tweaking speaker placement and orientation.

There are usually many things to try, including different component configurations.

Once you find the best combo with what you have, then you can access how to make it better, if still even needed.

DO not neglect power conditioning as Elizabeth suggested either in your case, in that this may be missing at present and usually only helps and not hurts if done right. Its particularly relevant for the common issues you cite with treble, but generally a good thing overall.

Once all option are investigated, and power conditioning addressed, then a tube or two upstream might be the next thing to consider, if still needed, but by then it could be a non-issue.
austinbob
235 posts
 
I agree that integrating the W4S as a DAC only makes sense. I also agree that all copper cables may be a better fit (it was in my case).

The quick review I read about your speakers are that they can handle up to 250 watts and I note the NAD puts out 80. While they're moderately efficient (91 db sensitivity), they may relish more power? Also, if I'm not correct, you're mating $5000 speakers with an $800 integrated so that may be a worthwhile upgrade path.

Just my 2 cents.
newbee
4,781 posts
 
Before you start chasing a solution to your problem by replacing electronic's (or speakers, even) take a few moments to insure that your problem can't be reduced substantially by speaker placement re the walls (1st reflection points) and the amount of toe in you are using. Perhaps you might even post what your set up looks like to see if anyone has specific suggestions.

The easiest thing to check out is the toe in - toe your speakers in so that the axis crosses well in front of your seat and see what happens, especially in the highs.

Another thought that crosses my mind is that these speakers might not be as suitable for near field listening as some others. Perhaps the listening position is too close for the speakers to integrate properly and you are getting an unbalanced sound with emphasis on the highs which have a shorter signal path to your ears. You can check this out by moving you listening position back to 9 ot 10 feet (even though you might no be able to live with it in your apartment due to size etc. At least you might learn something about your speakers.

FWIW, you have a lot of money at your disposal to solve your problem - if it is not a speaker/set up problem my first attack would be to replace your amp/pre amp with a tubed integrated amp known for warmth, such as the Primaluna Dialogue stuff. The only down side to that is, if you are really critical, finding the right tubes to establish synergy (the right tone) with your source and speakers.
mechans
3,048 posts
 
I mostly agree with Liz on this, use Copper for all your cables and use a tube power amp, not just pre-amp! Ask the First Watt forum people for the warmest variant out there if you really want to try that. Not all of them were warm and fuzzy. Good luck and listening.
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