Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs


I really love the idea of the Vandersteen Subs where they are connected with the mains via extra speaker cable off right and left channels off the main amplifier, which is supposed to provide better bass transition from the mains while keeping the signature from the main amplifier. My question is with Vandersteen coming out with the SUB THREE and the price going significantly higher, I was wondering if there are other subs for less that you could integrate in the same way. (Most subs seem to rely on the line level input which is just a sub-woofer RCA going from the pre-amp to the amp on the sub). Can this same Vandersteen set-up be achieved with other subs?
I picked Rythmik since they are known (in the home theater community anyway) for being one of the best bang for the buck subs and the most "musical" of the bunch. (between Hsu, SVS, PSA).
And could I possibly achieve even greater sub-woofer nirvana since I could get an 18" for around $1500? Vandies only have 3 eight inchers.

I am a Vandersteen fanboy and I would like to support RV whenever I can, but don’t know much about my other sub-woofer options so looking for some feedback. Doesn’t even have to be related to Rythmik necessarily. If you know of other subs that can integrate the same way I want to know about it!

Thanks
bstatmeister
"Even without talking about the brand you want to use, a subwoofer is still a difficult tool to set up. You need different parameters to adjust. "

Hello bo1972,
     I agree with the concept of subwoofers  needing to be well integrated with the main speakers to produce a more realistic and 'in the room'  illusion on recorded musical content. 
     I disagree, however, that a subwoofer is a difficult tool to setup, especially if you're goal is just good bass response at a specific listening position 'sweet spot'. 
     As I detailed in my earlier posts on this thread,  this is a relatively simple process that is not dependent on the sub brand, cables or type/brand of main speakers.  There's also no need for bass room  treatments,  equalization, different parameters to adjust or room correction software and hardware of any sort.
     As long as they're properly positioned in the room, 2 subs will provide better bass response than 1 and 3 subs will outperform 2. 
     4 subs properly positioned will provide state of the art bass response in almost any room, again without any room treatments, equalization, room correction and parameters to adjust. 
      The bass will be very good virtually throughout the entire room. very well integrated, detailed and have an effortless quality that will also definitely provide what you call a 3D matrix, "the feeling that the low energy of the loudspeaker at different places in the room depending where it is on the recording".  The 4 subs can be of any brand and do not need to be 4 identical subs.
     The above is not my opinion but a paraphrasing of the scientific results published as White Papers and detailed by Acoustic engineers  Earl Geddes and Floyd O'Toole.  
      If you're still skeptical as I was initially, I'd suggest trying this scientifically proven and independently verified method for yourself.
      The only downside is the loss of sales on bass room treatments, equalizers, room correction hardware/software and magical cabling by sellers.

Tim
There are a few ways to get what you want for bass.  Nothing is difficult in set up, but it will take time to get it right no matter what you have.  Integrating a sub can be difficult.  I personally do like EQ (analog) as it smoothed out the bass performance in my room GREATLY.  It made a huge difference.  I also like the Vandy subs because they take on the sound signature of any amp that they are crossed over with.  I don't know of any other subs that do that and it make a nice difference to my ears.  

I read so many talking about an array of 4 subs.  that sure can help, but  2 subs are already a big advantage over one and 4 gives flatter response IF the sub has no other way to EQ the problems remaining.  2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems.  We are also talking a more wife friendly room (I too like a cleaner looking room now days).  Another problem never mentioned is when the subs have drivers pointing into the listening space or ports the sidebands as these have a negative impact on imaging and sound stage.  Again, this is something that is never discussed, but very real.  


REL subs also "take on the sound signature of any amp that they are crossed over with" by utilizing the amp's output with their recommended "High Level" input. REL should market some sort of universal "longbow" wireless gizmo that would work with older RELs like mine that would allow more than 2 RELs in a system maybe...I say 2 because when I put the REL cables on the binding posts I don't want to squeeze more than 2 sets of REL specific wiring on the posts (using spades together with bananas for the main speakers...a crowd but manageable), or combine wires together to get that signal. Wishful thinking, or it's out there and I don't know it.
" I read so many talking about an array of 4 subs.  that sure can help, but  2 subs are already a big advantage over one and 4 gives flatter response IF the sub has no other way to EQ the problems remaining.  2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems.  We are also talking a more wife friendly room (I too like a cleaner looking room now days).  Another problem never mentioned is when the subs have drivers pointing into the listening space or ports the sidebands as these have a negative impact on imaging and sound stage.  Again, this is something that is never discussed, but very real."

Hello ctsooner,

     I agree that 2 subs, when properly positioned, will produce better bass response in almost any room than just a single sub.  This has been scientifically proven with the stipulations that good bass response will exist only at a predetermined listening position 'sweet spot' that results only if a specific sequential sub positioning process is followed. This is the proper positioning procedure:

1. Place sub#1 at your preferred listening position and play music with good and consistent bass content.

2.Starting at the right front corner of your room,walk slowly counter-clockwise around the perimeter of your room listening for the exact spot that the bass sounds the best to you.

3.  Place sub#1 at this specific location.

4.  Place sub#2 at your preferred listening position and play the music with good and consistent bass once again.

5.  Starting at the newly positioned sub#1, continue walking counter-clockwise around the perimeter of your room listening again for the exact spot where the bass sounds best to you.

6. Place sub#2 at this specific location.

7. Sit at your preferred listening position and verify the bass response sounds 'excellent' to you; smooth, detailed and natural without any over or under emphasis.  If the you perceive the bass response as 'excellent', then the positioning process is completed.    If not, it is worthwhile to repeat the process since even small errors in positioning can result in less than optimal results.
     With only 2 subs, this process provides excellent bass response.only at the listening position because the positioning process has resulted in no bass standing waves at the listening position. There are no bass peaks (exaggerated bass) or nulls (lack of bass due to cancellation) at the listening position.but standing waves will still exist elsewhere in the room. 
     Following this procedure with a 3rd sub will significantly reduce bass standing waves (improving bass response) elsewhere in the room and adding a 4th will  eliminate the majority of bass standing waves in the room.  In other words, adding the 3rd an 4th sub will not further reduce bass standing waves at the preferred listening position but will elsewhere in the room.  It's the user's choice concerning the extent of state of the art bass they want in their room.  
     I wanted excellent bass response at all 6 of the seats in my combo 2-ch music and ht living room system even though I could only optimize the midrange, treble and sound stage illusion performance at my preferred listening position.  I realize, of course, that not all users will require excellent bass response throughout their entire room.
     Also, I definitely disagree with your statement that "2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems".  It's my understanding that the only benefit of room EQ in a bass system is to reduce 'room slap' which is typically produced by a sub bass sound wave bouncing/reflecting off a hard floor and then  reflecting rather quickly off the ceiling or wall, causing a sharply perceived sound resembling a slap. 
      The frequency is usually below 300 Hz and often below 100 Hz.  Reducing the offending frequency via a room EQ may reduce the slap affect but will also affect the flatness and accuracy of your bass response in that frequency range; likely more noticeable the higher the offending frequency is.  
     The main reason your statement that "2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems" is so inaccurate, however, is that a properly set-up 4 sub bass system  requires absolutely no expensive bass room treatments/traps, mics, room equalization and room correction software or hardware. 
     It is a very elegant, almost magical, solution for SOTA bass response in virtually any room and integrates extremely well and seamlessly with any set of main speakers.  It will go as low as the musical or ht content calls for in an effortless manner while still keeping pace and integrating well with the fastest planar-magnetic and electrostatic panel speakers.
    Here's a review of the Audio Kinesis 4 sub system from The Absolute Sound for a more independent and perhaps less biased source: 
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

Tim
" We are also talking a more wife friendly room (I too like a cleaner looking room now days).  Another problem never mentioned is when the subs have drivers pointing into the listening space or ports the sidebands as these have a negative impact on imaging and sound stage.  Again, this is something that is never discussed, but very real."

ctsooner,

     Sorry, I went on so long on my last post but forgot to address your final points concerning the WAF and imaging:

WAF- If you view my system photos you'll notice it still maintains a clean look in my 23 x16 ft. room that my wife and I also enjoy.  The 2 subs along the front 16 ft. wall are hidden from view by each of my large 6 x 2 ft.panel  mains.  Each sub along the 23 ft. long side walls are a bit more visible but, because the 10" drivers face the wall,all that's visible is the nicely finished wood  on the sides, top and backof each sub.  My wife says these look like art gallery pedestals and she usually has a vase of fresh flowers on one or both.

Imaging and sound stage illusion-  If you care to read about this I discussed it thoroughly in my post on 6/13 responding to bo1972,  The gist is that, IMO, both are only enhanced with the Audio Kinesis 4 sub configuration that is rated at -3db @ 20-100 Hz.

     The Vandersteen Sub Nine is rated identically as -3db @ 20-100 Hz.  I know the Audio Kinesis Swarm/Debra, and I believe the Vandy, are designed to be -3db to compensate for the typical bass room gain of +3db.

Tim