Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs

REL subs also "take on the sound signature of any amp that they are crossed over with" by utilizing the amp's output with their recommended "High Level" input. REL should market some sort of universal "longbow" wireless gizmo that would work with older RELs like mine that would allow more than 2 RELs in a system maybe...I say 2 because when I put the REL cables on the binding posts I don't want to squeeze more than 2 sets of REL specific wiring on the posts (using spades together with bananas for the main speakers...a crowd but manageable), or combine wires together to get that signal. Wishful thinking, or it's out there and I don't know it.

" I read so many talking about an array of 4 subs.  that sure can help, but  2 subs are already a big advantage over one and 4 gives flatter response IF the sub has no other way to EQ the problems remaining.  2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems.  We are also talking a more wife friendly room (I too like a cleaner looking room now days).  Another problem never mentioned is when the subs have drivers pointing into the listening space or ports the sidebands as these have a negative impact on imaging and sound stage.  Again, this is something that is never discussed, but very real."

Hello ctsooner,

     I agree that 2 subs, when properly positioned, will produce better bass response in almost any room than just a single sub.  This has been scientifically proven with the stipulations that good bass response will exist only at a predetermined listening position 'sweet spot' that results only if a specific sequential sub positioning process is followed. This is the proper positioning procedure:

1. Place sub#1 at your preferred listening position and play music with good and consistent bass content.

2.Starting at the right front corner of your room,walk slowly counter-clockwise around the perimeter of your room listening for the exact spot that the bass sounds the best to you.

3.  Place sub#1 at this specific location.

4.  Place sub#2 at your preferred listening position and play the music with good and consistent bass once again.

5.  Starting at the newly positioned sub#1, continue walking counter-clockwise around the perimeter of your room listening again for the exact spot where the bass sounds best to you.

6. Place sub#2 at this specific location.

7. Sit at your preferred listening position and verify the bass response sounds 'excellent' to you; smooth, detailed and natural without any over or under emphasis.  If the you perceive the bass response as 'excellent', then the positioning process is completed.    If not, it is worthwhile to repeat the process since even small errors in positioning can result in less than optimal results.
     With only 2 subs, this process provides excellent bass response.only at the listening position because the positioning process has resulted in no bass standing waves at the listening position. There are no bass peaks (exaggerated bass) or nulls (lack of bass due to cancellation) at the listening position.but standing waves will still exist elsewhere in the room. 
     Following this procedure with a 3rd sub will significantly reduce bass standing waves (improving bass response) elsewhere in the room and adding a 4th will  eliminate the majority of bass standing waves in the room.  In other words, adding the 3rd an 4th sub will not further reduce bass standing waves at the preferred listening position but will elsewhere in the room.  It's the user's choice concerning the extent of state of the art bass they want in their room.  
     I wanted excellent bass response at all 6 of the seats in my combo 2-ch music and ht living room system even though I could only optimize the midrange, treble and sound stage illusion performance at my preferred listening position.  I realize, of course, that not all users will require excellent bass response throughout their entire room.
     Also, I definitely disagree with your statement that "2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems".  It's my understanding that the only benefit of room EQ in a bass system is to reduce 'room slap' which is typically produced by a sub bass sound wave bouncing/reflecting off a hard floor and then  reflecting rather quickly off the ceiling or wall, causing a sharply perceived sound resembling a slap. 
      The frequency is usually below 300 Hz and often below 100 Hz.  Reducing the offending frequency via a room EQ may reduce the slap affect but will also affect the flatness and accuracy of your bass response in that frequency range; likely more noticeable the higher the offending frequency is.  
     The main reason your statement that "2 quality subs with room EQ will trump most 4 sub systems" is so inaccurate, however, is that a properly set-up 4 sub bass system  requires absolutely no expensive bass room treatments/traps, mics, room equalization and room correction software or hardware. 
     It is a very elegant, almost magical, solution for SOTA bass response in virtually any room and integrates extremely well and seamlessly with any set of main speakers.  It will go as low as the musical or ht content calls for in an effortless manner while still keeping pace and integrating well with the fastest planar-magnetic and electrostatic panel speakers.
    Here's a review of the Audio Kinesis 4 sub system from The Absolute Sound for a more independent and perhaps less biased source: 
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

Tim

" We are also talking a more wife friendly room (I too like a cleaner looking room now days).  Another problem never mentioned is when the subs have drivers pointing into the listening space or ports the sidebands as these have a negative impact on imaging and sound stage.  Again, this is something that is never discussed, but very real."

ctsooner,

     Sorry, I went on so long on my last post but forgot to address your final points concerning the WAF and imaging:

WAF- If you view my system photos you'll notice it still maintains a clean look in my 23 x16 ft. room that my wife and I also enjoy.  The 2 subs along the front 16 ft. wall are hidden from view by each of my large 6 x 2 ft.panel  mains.  Each sub along the 23 ft. long side walls are a bit more visible but, because the 10" drivers face the wall,all that's visible is the nicely finished wood  on the sides, top and backof each sub.  My wife says these look like art gallery pedestals and she usually has a vase of fresh flowers on one or both.

Imaging and sound stage illusion-  If you care to read about this I discussed it thoroughly in my post on 6/13 responding to bo1972,  The gist is that, IMO, both are only enhanced with the Audio Kinesis 4 sub configuration that is rated at -3db @ 20-100 Hz.

     The Vandersteen Sub Nine is rated identically as -3db @ 20-100 Hz.  I know the Audio Kinesis Swarm/Debra, and I believe the Vandy, are designed to be -3db to compensate for the typical bass room gain of +3db.

Tim

Bass room gain?? Bass is all over the map in any room but an anechoic. ±30db is not a typical.

A multi-sub system may smooth out level, but it will be a phase nightmare. Imagine a rectangular box filled with water. Drop in a pebble. The wave will bounce around dependent on wall reflectivity. Add additional pebbles and interference patterns develop in the primary wave.

Subs that connect to speaker terminals do not 'take on' the main amp character. They add their character to the main amp.

"Subs that connect to speaker terminals do not 'take on' the main amp character. They add their character to the main amp."

ieales,
Talk to Richard Vandersteen about that topic and he will 'educate' you.