We Need To Talk About Ones And Zeroes


Several well-respected audiophiles in this forum have stated that the sound quality of hi-res streamed audio equals or betters the sound quality of traditional digital sources.

These are folks who have spent decades assembling highly desirable systems and whose listening skills are beyond reproach. I for one tend to respect their opinions.

Tidal is headquartered in NYC, NY from Norwegian origins. Qobuz is headquartered in Paris, France. Both services are hosted on Amazon Web Services (AWS), the cloud infrastructure services giant that commands roughly one third of the world's entire cloud services market.

AWS server farms are any audiophile's nightmare. Tens of thousands of multi-CPU servers and industrial-grade switches crammed in crowded racks, miles of ordinary cabling coursing among tens of thousands of buzzing switched-mode power supplies and noisy cooling fans. Industrial HVAC plants humming 24/7.

This, I think, demonstrates without a doubt that audio files digitally converted to packets of ones and zeroes successfully travel thousands of miles through AWS' digital sewer, only to arrive in our homes completely unscathed and ready to deliver sound quality that, by many prominent audiophiles' account, rivals or exceeds that of $5,000 CD transports. 

This also demonstrates that digital transmission protocols just work flawlessly over noise-saturated industrial-grade lines and equipment chosen for raw performance and cost-effectiveness.

This also puts in perspective the importance of improvements deployed in the home, which is to say in the last ten feet of our streamed music's multi-thousand mile journey.


No worries, I am not about to argue that a $100 streamer has to sound the same as a $30,000 one because "it's all ones and zeroes".

But it would be nice to agree on a shared-understanding baseline, because without it intelligent discourse becomes difficult. The sooner everyone gets on the same page, which is to say that our systems' digital chains process nothing less and nothing more than packets of ones and zeroes, the sooner we can move on to genuinely thought-provoking stuff like, why don't all streamers sound the same? Why do cables make a difference? Wouldn't that be more interesting?

devinplombier

All of this is over my head but my lying eyes don't deceive me. Blu Ray players are head and shoulders above streaming. Period. From AI Overview:

Streaming services use compression techniques (like HEVC/H.265) to reduce file sizes and bandwidth usage, which can lead to some data loss. Blu-ray players, especially 4K, use less aggressive compression (H.264/AVC) to preserve more details. 
Streaming services typically use lower bitrates (data transmission rate) than Blu-ray players. For example, a 4K Blu-ray might have a bitrate of 40-70 Mbps, while a streaming service might only offer 10-25 Mbps.
Due to lower bitrates and more aggressive compression, streaming can sometimes show more visible compression artifacts, like banding, blocking, or a loss of detail in dark or fast-moving scenes. Blu-ray, with its higher bitrates and less compression, generally produces a clearer, sharper, and more detailed image.
Blu-ray often includes lossless audio formats (like DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD), which provide better sound quality than the compressed audio formats used in streaming (like Dolby Digital Plus) according to Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum (of all sources).
Blu-ray discs can store significantly more data than a streaming service. A standard 1080p Blu-ray can hold up to 50GB, while a 4K Blu-ray can hold up to 100GB.Streaming services, on the other hand, compress the video into much smaller files, often in the range of 10-13GB for a 4K movie.
 

The argument that a Ferrari doesn't turn blue for a moment is specious. What streaming does is change the color tone from something like Rosso Barchetta to Rosso Berlinetta or Rosso Cino or even worse, Rosso Corsa. 

When streaming audio, there's really no doubt that all the packets get there in time and in order but that's a numbers game. That's all that's being discussed and relies on everyone to just take their word for it as they can hear the difference.The signal in a CDP isn't compressed and travels a matter of inches while the streamed version is compressed and then uncompressed and travels around the world. 

This numbers game presupposes that the resultant sound is not in the least affected when compressed and uncompressed and focuses only on the numbers. That's the very definition of a red herring:

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important question. It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences toward a false conclusion.

How many here jumped on the MQA bandwagon only to see it shot down? That compression scheme corrupted the sound. How many are fully invested in streaming and find the need to validate it to others? There are so many previous threads on this that, in the end, went nowhere. Both sides stayed put. 

A casual search on the internet shows more contradictions to arguments for streaming not being brought up but well known to those who can rattle off numbers and protocols like there's no tomorrow. It's in threads like this that one can find consensus to put forth their arguments without fear of being challenged. I certainly don't have the chops for that but there are so many recording engineers online that say otherwise as well but they rarely frequent sites like this. Some have in the past and when they do, the thread goes silent for awhile and then gathers momentum, picking up where it left off with the hopes of not hearing from them again. 

It's not that those who prefer CDs and better quality endpoint devices think there's magic in our choices though we are told that.  It's the ones who say that a compressed signal can travel through a dirty and noisy chain and remain its virgin self when uncompressed that abide by magic.  

All the best,
Nonoise

It seems to me, and in this bunch there is someone who will correct me if they think I am wrong... :) IT seems to me that there are very few things that determine the accuracy of the played signal out of our streamers. Number one is the source file. How good was it? SACD or at the other end an mp3 file? And then at the end of the digital transmission chain is the accuracy of the DAC that we use to decode the digital file and finally then our playback equipment...amplifier and speakers or headphones. Everything else in the middle is basically the same for everyone. Its all ones and zeros with error correction built in. So that part is the same for everyone. The difference is truly in our playback equipment and I am going out on a limb and say any audible differences within today's DACs are negligible and surely well below the threshold of hearing and definitively well below my ability to discern the differences. And even if I COULD hear the difference between my 329 dollar DAC and a 30,000 dollar DAC, my common sense and budget dictates I buy the 329 dollar unit. I know there are those here that could and would buy the 30k unit but I also suspect the reasons for doing so go above and beyond perceived better performance. Any of you guys going to admit to a leaning towards buying something for its looks? I have done so in the past...and probably will again. Any takers?

 

 The other glaring variable in resolution is antique coaxial internet service versus fiber optic or microwave mesh. At my old house I was limited to coaxial and it was not pretty. The technician told me he had a job for life replacing coax connectors under the sidewalk. They lose continuity like clock work in summer heat. 

@nonoise

There are fundamental differences between digital video and digital audio.

Digital video is always lossy because compression is used to make the bit rate manageable.  4K Blu-ray uses less aggressive compression than streaming, but there is still compression.  The Motion Picture Expert Group has combined a range of lossy compression techniques which are realised as mpeg formats in various versions.

If no video compression were used, the bit rates are fairly easy to calculate.  Take the bits for one video frame and multiply by the frame rate of your choice.  The bits for one video frame are the bits per pixel times the number of horizontal pixels times the number of vertical pixels. At 24 bits per pixel and 4K resolution we need about 24 * 2,000 * 2,000 bits, or about 100-million bits per frame.  With a 60-Hz refresh rate, that's about 6-trillion bits per second.  Fortunately, there's not much change between most frames and the following one, and one compression technique is to just send the changes, with an occasional complete refresh.

Our eyes are much more forgiving than our ears.

Audio can be losslessly encoded at bit rates which are achievable with today's technology.  However, while lossless encoding and decoding can always recover the original digital sequence if all the packets are delivered and error corrected, it does not stop packets getting lost or corrupted when streaming.

 

richardbrand

... In general, UDP/IP is the protocol used for streaming ...

That's not the case with providers such as Qobuz, which use TCP/IP protocol. That delivers bit-perfect data right to your streamer.