What exactly is PRaT???

@clustrocasual Yes, I apparently and admittedly don’t get it. I’ve played drums in bands for decades and wrote professional reviews of high-end audio equipment for 17 years for the Soundstage network. Do tell, what is your system and what’s your experience in high-end audio other than you just know it when you hear it? I can tell just by the words and phrases you use that you have no idea what you’re talking about and have little experience in playing music or high-end audio. Please regale us with your system and expertise.

@clustrocasual  No offense, but none of this makes any sense to me whatsoever.  Define what the “natural energy” is in a recording to me because it means nothing and is completely nebulous.  Also, what are “fake dynamics” and who are you to determine what’s fake if you didn’t make the recording?  And how can PRaT change throughout a song???  Honestly this sounds like utter jibberish to me, but whatever floats your boat. 

After four pages of discussion, I am pretty sure Agoners can’t help you with this, unless they are a Buddhist monk or a licensed psychologist.

@knownothing I agree. Nothing anyone has said here has helped or made any sense to me whatsoever — I just don’t get it, but that’s ok. At this point I’m thinking it’d take a direct A/B comparison between good and bad PRaT systems to get it through my head cause words ain’t cutting it and this seems more like a “feel” thing that needs to be heard to be understood. Anyway, in the meantime I guess I’ll just be like those who say they can’t hear a difference between streamers and go forward in happy ignorance. 😜

@gbmcleod  As I mentioned, I’m a drummer so I not only know the beat, I’m the one who keeps it so the dancers know where it is and I still don’t get how PRaT translates (or doesn’t) to an audio system.  Sorry but your analogy doesn’t translate to me at all, but neither has anyone else’s for that matter so it remains a mystery to me. 

@atmasphere  Hey Ralph thanks so much for at least trying to explain what the hell I’m missing.  I get that a system needs to be fast enough to reproduce music effectively, but I just don’t get it.  It’s not a “thing” for me I guess.  Tone.  Imaging.  Soundstage. Yeah, I get all that.  But pace, rhythm, and timing?  No.  I’ll hear plodding bass if it’s overdone and slow, but that’s just not what I hear with most systems.  This “toe tapping” thing is just totally lost on me, and I guess I’m just missing it or don’t hear that way.  Linn and Naim can do their “thing” but I’ll never, ever own Linn speakers because they sound like nasally ass to me.  But that’s just me.  

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?  

Speakers from Joseph Audio, Magico, Audio Physic, Vandersteen, Totem, Marten, Thiel, get imaging and soundstage.  Simple in your face speakers like JBL or Klipsch speakers, not so much.  They are in your face and can’t capture the beauty and Grace of better recordings.  They do what they do.  They’re in your face hit you with slam speakers and good on them for what they do.  But they’re just rock n roll speakers for head bangers cause that’s what they do and they’re limited and can’t do the finer points of music.  They just can’t.  They ain’t built that way, and that’s ok for people who want that “sound.” 

@dogearedaudio Yeah, I agree timing, pace, and rhythm, whatever that is is important and significant, but I just don’t get or sense it. When you can “see” the three dimensional images of musicians performing in a 3D space I get that. That they’re somehow behind the beat, no, I don’t get that cause the music was recorded the way it was recorded. I just don’t get what a “slow” system sounds like. But I know Linn can’t make speakers I like because they sound like shite and nasally and I can hear it 10 yards out the door. They might do PRaT but they don’t do tone or soudstaging in any realm IMHO. ,

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  You and I are clearly on different planets when it comes to sound.  If you don’t understand what imaging and 3D soundstage are then you have compromised hearing and/or a compromised system not capable of producing it.  I’m guessing you have your Klipsch or Bose speakers stapled to the wall to not understand imaging or soundstage.  But, I don’t get PRaT so that’s maybe my hearing deficiency.  To each his own I guess, and that’s what makes the audio world go ’round.  

Seriously? What could be more essential to the performing arts than pace, rhythm and timing? And what could be more easily comprehensible? Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis.

@dogearedaudio  Why is it that people here are having such a hard time defining it?   We can define tonality.  We can define imaging and 3D soundstage.  We can define a speaker’s disappearing act.  Seriously?  I’m a drummer and if I’m locked in with my bass player the band is on, so pretty sure I get timing, rhythm, and pace.  What you’re talking about that should be so easy to hear isn’t so in my book.  Do you even play an instrument?   

So far no one has been able to give a reasonable objective definition of it that folks agree upon and makes sense to the folks trying to understand which says to me that no one really knows what it is.

@jastralfu Bingo!!!  That’s exactly what I’m sayin’.  

One question: do you experience some systems as more rhythmically engaging than others?

@stuartk No. I do not. A system either plays music the way I perceive it or it does not. If a system truncates highs, sounds bleached or lacking in tone, or sounds two dimensional I get that. Timing? Pace? No. These things are not in my audiophile vocabulary. A system either plays music in a believable way or it does not. I’ve never heard a system that sounds “slow” or lacks ”pace” or whatever the hell that is. I just don’t get it.  I will say this though, I was at an audio show and I knew 10 yards out from a Linn room that it was Linn speakers because it sounded bleached and nasally.  If that’s pace and rhythm you can have it. 

WhatHiFi is, IMO, one of the more reliable review sites and they devote a fair portion of every review talking about the equipment’s ability convey joy and rhythm, and generally a good musical experience. Nothing wrong with that.

@dogearedaudio Well, yeah nothing wrong with that but it doesn’t tell me squat about whether I wanna listen to a piece of gear or not. What HiFi sucks IMHO, and they don’t ever compare whatever equipment is under review to anything else. Why? Because they don’t wanna be held accountable like all the Brit mags. Useless. Utterly useless reviews.

@danager Great song. How does that tell me absolutely anything about PRaT??? My system sounds great playing that song so what EXACTLY makes a better PRaT system sound better doing that? I mean, as a drummer you’re either on the beat or you’re not. And I’ve not heard a system that’s “behind” the beat. You gotta come at me with more than a single song. I’m willing or learn, but this ain’t it.

Well, if this thread has taught me anything it’s that this thing called PRaT is pretty indescribable in words and is just a “feel” thing I just apparently don’t — and probably never will — get or care about.  I appreciate all your attempts to educate me, but I still just don’t get it.  Music either sounds real to me or it doesn’t.  Period.  I just can’t relate that to timing, “pace” whatever the hell that is or “rhythm” whatever the hell that is.  I think most famously Art Dudley used to focus on timing and beats, and I never got anything he was talking about and never got much from any of his reviews.  Kind of like Herb Reichert or Sam Tellig — I like reading their prose but never, ever, get anything out of whether I wanna buy a component because they’re just too opaque.  They write just to write for their own sake.  It’s entertaining to read but ultimately not very useful IMHO.  I could be wrong as usual, but what say you?  I think this could be an interesting topic for further discussion.