ref1000s do not have custom input stage for best tube amp results nor beefed up power supply.....stock icepower. So may not be best still for a 4 ohm load or use with tube pre-amp if needed, ....even though 500 w/ch. You need somewhat pricier ref1000m for that. ref1000m is what I have been using for a number of years now and still sound very good. Drives every speaker I have thrown at it to the max (Ohm, Dynaudio, KEF) and never breaks a sweat.
What is Floyd Toole saying about extra amplifier power and headroom?
I've been reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" and came across a passage that I wish he went into further detail about. It has to do with whether having amplifier headroom has any noticeable improvement in sq. He happens to be talking about getting the bass right in small rooms, but in doing so, he also touches on the use of a larger amp for extra headroom:
It's the last part ("useless headroom") that I'm curious about. I have notoriously hard-to-drive speakers (Magico Mini IIs). Although the recommended amplification is 50w - 200w, in my experience, that's a bit of an underestimation. I'm driving the Minis with a Musical Fidelity M6PRX, which is rated at 230w @ 8ohms. (The Minis are 4ohm.) The combination sounds excellent to my ears at low to moderate listening levels, but I notice a slight compression in the soundstage at higher levels. My listening room, while small, is fairly well treated with DIY panels made from Rockwool, sound-absorbent curtains, and thick carpeting. So I don't think I'm overloading the room. But I have wondered if an amp with far more power than what's suggested (more headroom) would drive the speakers with a little less effort.
Those of you familiar with Toole or with driving speakers with power to spare, what are your experiences? If I went with, say, a pair of monoblocks that drive 600w @ 4ohm, would the extra headroom address the compression I'm hearing at higher levels? Or am I wasting my time and, potentially, funds that would be better spent elsewhere?
Thanks!
Remedies for unacceptable situations typically included spending more money on a loudspeaker with a “better” woofer (without useful technical specifications, that was a lottery of another kind) and a bigger amplifier (for useless headroom ...
It's the last part ("useless headroom") that I'm curious about. I have notoriously hard-to-drive speakers (Magico Mini IIs). Although the recommended amplification is 50w - 200w, in my experience, that's a bit of an underestimation. I'm driving the Minis with a Musical Fidelity M6PRX, which is rated at 230w @ 8ohms. (The Minis are 4ohm.) The combination sounds excellent to my ears at low to moderate listening levels, but I notice a slight compression in the soundstage at higher levels. My listening room, while small, is fairly well treated with DIY panels made from Rockwool, sound-absorbent curtains, and thick carpeting. So I don't think I'm overloading the room. But I have wondered if an amp with far more power than what's suggested (more headroom) would drive the speakers with a little less effort.
Those of you familiar with Toole or with driving speakers with power to spare, what are your experiences? If I went with, say, a pair of monoblocks that drive 600w @ 4ohm, would the extra headroom address the compression I'm hearing at higher levels? Or am I wasting my time and, potentially, funds that would be better spent elsewhere?
Thanks!
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- 120 posts total
If you are looking into CODA, try the Sanders MagTech. Made by CODA with built in power supply regulation. The only other big amps I know of who have any sort of regulation are the Krells. I'm sure there are others though. That was going to be one of my suggestions from the start, but I thought you wanted to stay with bigger brands. Best, Erik |
PS - When it comes to convolution filters and roon, I go 100% with Toole. I think they are too much, and if you want to go that flat, what is the point of your speaker brand to begin with? With Roon, I prefer minimal EQ, using parametrics. It maintains the character of my speakers, reduces CPU demand on the Roon server, and does the least harm. Also, prevents over-EQing for 1 spot. |
@erik_squires When it comes to Convoluton filters what I have now was created by a rock star in the field, not by some random DIY’er who thinks they are an expert after tinkering around. This was done by a professional audio engineer doing this for 20+ years and has written a book on this issue. What I have now is the best tweak or upgrade to my system. I do not know if you hang out in the Computer Audiophile site but my filters were created based on info posted there. Some very knowledge folks on this issue over there. I am posting my findings here because most folks on this site are not aware of the possibilities with Convolution. My Convolution files was created using Audiolense which I understand is some very complicated software (Accurate is another option). It is also not free, like REW. I had to pay $200 for a 1 time license usage of the software by the outsourced audio expert. The implementation cost was another $500. Peanuts from my perspective. I paid more for an XLR interconnect and that had 0.00145% the benefit of the Convolution. What I solved was getting a big speaker into a small room and getting it sounding perfect. That was my goal from the start and mission accomplished. It took me 2 years to get to this destination from the start of this thread. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/big-speakers-in-small-room-at-moderate-volume-levels?highligh... With regards to ROON setup, I have a 2 computer solution. My client computer was picked out of the trash 5 years ago from an previous employer. My ROON Core server is a under $1K DELL refurbished machine. It has something like 20 cores and 32 Gigs of RAM. This is actually my weakest server in the house, I have about 10 computers in the house. ROON Core does not need that much power, even with Convolution. If you go to the ROON forums and ask the ROON developers there they will tell you the same. I had a buddy over to my office today. I had him sit at my desk and I played the music. He had the same reaction I am having, glorious sound. I have actually heard enough uber systems and other non-uber great systems to know that my system is now also great. |
- 120 posts total