2. analog
  3. 1275613117

What MC for $1,000-$2,000?

Well, call me surprised when my Quatro Signature II woods didn't like my new DENON 103-R. It ate it alive and spit it out like so much wood from a wood chiper.

The bass was decent, with nice punch. But from there it wasn't so good. Weak imaging (on Vandersteen Quatro's!), midrange was cloudy and had no depth at all. Cat Stevens sounded like cardboard. He sings from down in his chest, but the DENON comes across FLAT as AM radio. The highs were depressed in dynamics and extension. No amount of stylus rake angle (some call this VTA, but it isn't) or stylus pressure ETC changed the basic sonic signature. I had a 103D model that sounded good on my Dhalquist DQ-10's with morror imaged KEF tweeter mods and dual DQ-1W subs, so I went with what I thought I knew. I know NOTHING!

I re installed my thirty year old Accuphase AC-2 and WOW, is that a nice cartridge or what, compared to the Denon 103R on Quatros. EVERYTHING just opened up. Bass was tight and lost the too warm sound, the mids were precise and stood in space with tons of air and ambience (strings are stunning). The highes are fast and open. In short, this was a good cart. It seems to have a left channel acting up so I need to consider a replacement. No matter where I set the AC-2, it was simply worlds away from the 103R.

The problem with the Quatro's, is that they are so good at what they do for the price that you seem to really, really, need to spend on a pick-up that can match their abilities. Way more than I expected! The DENON 103R is not a bad cartridge at all, it just limits what the Quatros can do, and the AC-2 let me know that in spades that performance is being left on the table, rats. Sure, it would be nice to change cartridges until I can't hear a change anymore, and KNOW that the speakers are now the limiting source, but I can't do that. Its hard to audition a cartridge at all.

So what are you guys and gals using with high definition speakers? I looked at a Dynavector KARATE 17DS that seems like a possibility. Worse, is that I have no real reference for WHERE the AC-2 stands in general timber to what's out there. It sure is good sounding on the Quatro's, that's for sure. The AC-2 isn't "warm" but past that I'd say it was tight and fast, with an extremely open mid on up. What's available that matches that description?

This can get plenty frustration, as the cartridge is probably, I say definitely, every bit as important as your speakers, but with almost no real way to audution them.

I use;
Sim Audio LP-5.3 MC/MM pre amp
Ariston RD-IIs Turn Table
SME series III tone arm
McCormack DNA-225 amp
McCormack MAP-1 pre amp
Quatro Signature II woods
OPPO BDP-83SE CD unit.
rower30
audiofeil
4,011 posts
 
Let me 'splain this to you Rower. This is nothing new and it's not rocket science.

An average cartridge on a great table/tonearm will outperform a great cartridge on an average table/tonearm all day, all night, today, tomorrow, and forever. Knowledgable audio folks know this and have lived it.

With some experience, you'll be there too.

Good luck.
213cobra
885 posts
 
The cartridge is fine but it's not a good match for your tonearm, and the tonearm isn't a good match to the Denon 103R. The SME III is too light by a wide margin. You had prior success with the 103D because it is more than twice as compliant as the 103/103R, and works well in the lower-mass arms that were common during its period of manufacture. You have to keep in mind that just because a Denon cartridge is labelled a "103" does not mean its compliance and dynamic characteristics will be identical between variants. 103/103R, 103D, 103M, 103S all have distinctly different compliance, cantilever, output and diamond shape specs, for example.

The 103R will come to life in tonearms with effective mass of, on the light side 12g (you will want to add a supplemental mass shim when you mount the cart) to roughly 20g. In the proper tonearm, a 103R will give your speakers plenty to resolve.

Phil
213cobra
885 posts
 
>>Yes, a heavier arm is better for the MC pick-ups, but an AC-2 is not what I would call very "low" complinace. Yes, the DENON 103r is (about 1/3 as compliant). One of the major factors in all this is indeed the compliance of the cartridge more closely matching tonearm's range. So, I am looking to keep thing at or near the AC-2. I 100% agree that that detail isn't probably a detail.<<

Denon compliance ratings are measured at 100 Hz. The standard spec for most cartridges is to measure compliance at 10 Hz. Accuphase, IIRC measures at 10 Hz. To reconcile the difference, a 100 Hz compliance rating should be multiplied by 1.8. There's some argument whether the multiplier should be 2.0, 1.5, etc. 1.8 works about right, in my experience. So the Denon 103R compliance rating of 5 is not "1/3 as compliant" as the Accuphase. It's more like 15 for the AC2 vs. 9 for the 103R. The 103D works out to 21.6 on an apples to apples basis.

Even the AC2 is not really in its sweet spot in the SME III, but the combination gets into the working zone, whereas the 103R motor is just not being worked in that arm. A 103D would be deep in its zone so my suggestion is to go back to that, if you aren't going to upgrade the tonearm. Another route: you have a good dynamic match for a Denon DL-S1 or a DL304. A DL-S1 is right at the threshold of your price range and will easily best many or most cartridges at the top of it. However, my better advice is to upgrade the arm, for more reasons than changing effective mass.

Phil
t_bone
1,182 posts
 
Rower30,
As others have stated, the compliance mismatch between effective weight of the arm and the Denon103R, the fact that the Denon 103R was not broken in and the AC-2 was broken in would make a big difference, and the fact that the AC-2 was probably a better cart in the first place, all contribute to the result you got.

However, as a few others have stated, and as I tried to state 'diplomatically' in my first response, a semi-decent cart will take you a LONG way. Audiofeil has it right - a great table/arm+ halfway decent cart will sound better than the world's best cart on a not-so-good table/arm setup. If it doesn't, then you know you have other problems in the system.

This is not so much a baby and bathwater situation as it is a situation of asking "who would you rather have in your living room? Audiofeil in a really expensive diamond-studded bikini? or Miranda Kerr in a bikini covered with mud?"

Disclosure: I have never seen Audiofeil in any kind of bikini but I know how I'd answer anyway.
daverz
487 posts
 
The Audio Technica AT33 line would be ideal for a low mass arm.
More to discover