Which 300b amplifier for Devore O/96

Hello essrand,
You have generated an interesting thread which has yielded informed responses. As the varied comments here demostrate, there are simply no absolutes in regard to High End audio and personal listening objectives. Your experience with the Coincident Frankenstein vs Lyngdorf mirrors that of cal3713 in preferring the Frankenstein. Yet there’s no doubt that some other listeners would prefer the Lyngdorf.

SET vs OTL, again this will result in another split decision. How could it be otherwise? So many variables/specific scenarios/ listener taste for there to be any other outcome. Any blanket statement that one particular topology is superior to all others regardless of circumstances is patently false. I’ve owned the Coincident Frankenstein for nearly 10 years and it’s a superb 300b SET. So I appreciate and agree with comments from drdavid. However I certainly recognize it won’t be the right choice for everyone.

Essrand the list of alternative 300b SETs you are considering is a formidable one. I’m pretty certain each will sound excellent and no doubt different than your Frankenstein. But better? Maybe or maybe not. I’m glad that you’ll be able to hear the Nagra and decide for yourself. I hope you can hear and compare all of the amplifiers on your list. They are all held in high esteem. I don’t see a bad choice no matter what you ultimately decide.

Essrand I bought the Takatsuki 300bs direct from Japan about 6 years ago and they are fabulous in the Frankenstein. For my needs/taste I prefer the EML XLS. I know that others will disagree but that’s okay. Just personal choice.
Best of luck,
Charles

Essrand,

If you have access to one then I highly recommend you try the Overture out, I am sure you will not regret it.

I am running mine with a GE-1 and refurbished TD-124/SPU combo along with a Swissonor step-up. All in all in a happy place.

If you are dead-set on 300b, don't forget the Tron Atlantic or for that matter the Allnic T-1500.

Brgds,

Peter

I am the importer and reseller for Art Audio.  Our Diavolo 300B is legendary and has been steadily improved over 20 years.  I would put it up against any of these and I am 100% certain the Diavolo will win.  It is available in stereo, mono-block and integrated.  We also offer a Harmony Silver version which eliminated PCBs and is point-to-point wired using silver wire.  

We have great reviews on older models and the amp is even better now.  And because I am consumer direct, you get a bit sharper of a price with no wholesaler margin.  I will also give you 30 days in-home with it.  And we offer upgrades to either KR or Sophia Tubes (for a price) and we have a bunch of other options available.  Your only risk is return shipping.  

Basically, I believe you should be able to get your amp, your way.  

I know you said your not interested in other options but I promise, you won’t regret considering us.

artaudio.us is our website.   

@pah 
I can't try it. I would have to buy it to try it. Will audition (sadly not on a O/96) when I am in NYC next month.

@jsautter 
Yes, I agree its apples to oranges comparison. Sorry, I was not clear, but what I meant was that the dynamic range seemed not different with 200W Class D vs the 9W 300b amp? I didn't feel like I needed any headroom, but then again I never go beyond 100dB since I live in an apartment complex.

@firstnot 
I have contacted tubeaudio.com, will let you know what he says.

@riaa 
I have contacted the west coast shindo dealer as well, lets see what he says.

the bottom line would seem to be that when playing recordings having the kind of dynamic range you described (about 32 db) you are not hearing the Franks at their best.

^^ This.

If you really want to hear what any SET does, to really do them justice, the speaker should be of efficiency such that about 20% of full power is *never* exceeded. With a speaker of only 92dB (and while I'm not a fan of Stereophile, in this regard JA's measurements can usually be trusted), that isn't going to happen unless your listening environment is very restricted.

Put another way, to really take advantage of most 300b SETs, speakers with +100dB is really the only way to do it in an average room in the US.


It is for this reason that out of the list presented initially I chose the Nagra.


But if you want to get more in depth about it, there isn't anything special or magic about the 300b. Its a good tube, but often SET advocates prefer the 2A3. That too is a good tube, but often SET advocates prefer the type 45. So 25 years or so ago, the 300b was the one that had the inside track, by 2003 or so the 2A3 was King, and now its the type 45 and its brethren (sub-1 watt-output).  What's happening here is not so much the tube, but the capabilities of the output transformer combined with that tube. Usually the plate current of the power tube is taken through the primary of the output transformer. The transformer can take a bit of DC, which causes a DC magnetic field (in a push pull transformer, the two aspects of current flow cause a DC cancellation so only an AC field exists). To minimize some of the effects of this (since the DC field leads to saturation of the transformer core), the core has a saw cut in it to vastly reduce the DC aspect. This however makes it less efficient for AC as well. So this leads to two practical aspects: bandwidth and distortion caused by saturation of the core.


In both cases, by simply using a tube that is lower power, this problem is reduced. Practically speaking, the upper limit of power on this account has been traditionally about 7 watts; above that the bandwidth and saturation issues really close in around the designer (not saying they can't be solved, but it gets prodigiously more expensive to turn out a transformer that actually has respectable 'hifi' bandwidth)! That's why the 2A3 sounds better and so on; get away from SET operation and you get away from this problem.


I've run plenty of SETs in my day. They all jive with what I mentioned above- a type 45 amp so far is the best I've heard. But it made so little power (0.75 watts) that for the most part it was impractical. I built a pair of type 45 amps that are push-pull; on the same speakers (which were 100dB; not nearly efficient enough for a 45 SET) they were able to reveal much more clarity in vocals and instrument details- bringing just a greater sense of musicality. The push pull version of the 45 makes about 6-7 watts.


In case it isn't clear at this point, SETs need efficient speakers! When you push them harder, the distortion not only obscures detail but it makes the amp seem 'loud' (hence their 'dynamic' quality so often mentioned). IME, in about 95% of audiophile conversation using the word 'dynamics' you can safely substitute the word 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation, other than to make it more truthful.

By comparison, any push pull tube amp has a greater amount of usable power- instead of 20% or so you get about 90% or so; even though you are playing higher sound pressures, it doen't sound as 'loud'.