Which digital input to use? Technics SU-R1000 or Technics SL-G700

Digital IN.

I’m almost certain they use the exact same AKM chipset. It was listed in one of my HiFi magazines at home and am 99% certain that was it.

So I’d say SU-R1000 digital input.

I have the SU-R1000, but I wasn’t super impressed with it’s DAC at first listen. I need to do some more comparisons, but have a really good DAC as is (Zenith Steamer via USB audio to Matrix X SPIDF D2D w/LPS 9v running I2S to my Gustard X26 Pro) and have the Musetec MH-DA005 coming to trial.

Only had the SU-R1000 for a week though now.

What are your thoughts?

I have the SU-R1000, but I wasn't super impressed with it's DAC.

Probably just token Delta Sigma dac being an AKM AK5572, I think many sound cards use them.
It's more about the amp maybe with a hi-end dac feeding it.
How does it sound btw??

Cheers George

Every single thing I've read on the SU-G700 and SU-R1000 never mentioned either as having/using an off the shelf DAC. I believe the DAC process was conceived and done by Technics, in house.

All input signals (analog and digital) go through a ADC (Burr Brown PCM1804)and it's only before the speaker outputs is where it's converted back to analog.

Two different retailers that sell them couldn't tell me how the DAC is done except to quote Technics explanation of how they do it in general terms and that it's not an off the shelf DAC. I could be wrong but it's what I found out. 

All the best,
Nonoise

I'll be honest I had the SU-G700 and I believe that had a Burr Brown chipset for it's DAC, I really enjoyed the sound. Now I've had the SU-R1000 for a week, with only two listening sessions in and none of them too loud thanks to my pregnant wife. But I know it has a AKM chip, not the Burr Brown, and there absolutely is a difference.

@georgehifi more neutral then the SU-G700, that's for sure, but I also got my new speakers too so my entire system is new. Heads still spinning. Previously had a lot of enjoyable time with my KEF LS50 Meta's and SU-G700, but now have the SU-R1000 and JBL L100 Classic 75's.

All an all when I did listen straight from my streamer (Innuous Zenith) to the SU-R100 I noticed more detail, but I've honesty not given it nearly enough time to even speak about it.

I need to just get my wife out of the house and settle in to my chair and listen.

stephencowslip

Just to ad to my last post.

From the Technics SU-R1000 website. https://ibb.co/ZMzp75n

https://www.technics.com/us/products/reference-class/su-r1000.html

Cheers George

There is no DAC in the Technics machines.  It is a PCM to PWM converter......done in software.....same as the original TACT Millennium and all the current Lyngdorf amps.  The A to D converter is an AKM as shown in their literature......not a Burr-Brown.....unless they had to switch to Burr-Brown because the the fire at AKM factory.

As a tribute to the Technics engineers, there’s a lot going on inside this box. It is a credit to their talent that this is no mere chip amp, or basic A/B amplifier, especially for this price. This amplifier is built like a ten-thousand dollar amplifier, albeit a little different than what a lot of you might be used to. The SU-G700 is a digital amplifier. Digital sources stay in the digital domain all the way through, while analog sources are converted to 24-bit/192kHz digital by a Burr-Brown 1804 A/D converter. Keep in mind that anything connected to one of the two analog inputs (including phono) is also converted to digital.

That is from a Tone Audio review and

Analogue input is converted with high precision to a digital signal by the high quality 192-kHz/24-bit A/D converter [Burr-Brown PCM1804 (Texas Instruments)], so the high-purity sound reproduction capability of the full-digital system can be maximised in playing back analogue sources. High-definition switching relays are used for signal switching

.
This is from Technics own website. It's always been the BB 1804. The AKM DAC is used in their SACD/streamer player.

All the best,
Nonoise

The Technics website says the 1000 has an AKM A/D and shows a picture of the AKM chip......see the link George provides.  Tone Audio review and the other thing you quoted is about the 700.......I am talking about the latest and greatest 1000......so the older 700 is using Burr Brown and 1000 is using AKM.  Not very important.....as every single thing inside something makes the sound.  The Technics 1000 seem to sound very good.....but I don't see any "this is state of the art raves".  Too bad, I was hoping the 1000 would kill everything.  Thank you Technics.....next....he he.   

The Technics SU-R1000 has 6 x digital source inputs 2 x rca coax and 2 x Toslink optical. And from the looks 2 x mini usb type B? as well https://ibb.co/V20b4D2

And uses the Delta Sigma AKM AK5572 D/A converter dac chip.
https://www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-adc/ak5572en/ak5572en-en-datasheet.pd...

It can be used as a stand alone poweramp (MAIN IN)
Or a standalone preamp (PRE OUT).

Even the converted digital can be accessed as analog from the "rec out rca’s"
So it can be used as a stand alone dac also.

Cheers George

Get it right George......the AD 5572 is a A/D converter.....not a D/A converter. There is no D/A converter (DAC) in any Technics...they are pure digital amps.....pcm to pwm conversion done directly by software.

The A/D converter is used to turn the analog signals into PCM signals......then the software turns it into PWM....unless the input is digital......the it is pure PCM to PWM.....and no A/D is needed.

You are correct, it being a adc not dac my mistake.

But I’ll hold firm in that

Even the 6 x digital inputs can be accessed as analog from the "rec out rca’s"
So it can be used as a stand alone dac also.

You don’t get it. The amp is a digital amp. It takes digital signals and converts them to analog via a pcm to pwm converter (pure digital with class D PWM output stage)......this is not a DAC in the normal sense of the word.

Now there might be a cheap DAC chip in there to convert the digital inputs to analog to feed the record out rca jacks.....but that DAC chip *if such a thing exists" would have nothing to do with the amp section.   And if there is a DAC in there to do this......why the heck would you care.  You are buying this to hear a digital amp......not to use as a DAC.  It already does what a DAC does.  If you want a great DAC....the there are tons of other options.

Yes, try and cover your tracks....you had no idea how the Technics worked till I told you.

Even after I said your correct with adc not dac and that I made a mistake.

Really!!! typical, you are a legend in your own mind. 🙄

I preferred you as a peace love Woodstock kinda guy

When you tell the truth.......we all win.  If you pretend....we all lose.  I want us all to win.  We are worthy.....We are worth telling the truth....even if it means saying we don't know what we are talking about.  We are all play acting as human beings here.....the human dance has flaws.....we are also pure divine light and love.....with no flaw what so ever.  We can forgive our human side because it is not who we truly are.  You might want to check out some NDE (Near Death Experience) videos to see what others have experienced (how truly worthy and beautiful we all are).

we are also pure divine light and love
how truly worthy and beautiful we all are

That’s more like it, back to normal.🙄

Only had the SU-R1000 for a week though now.

What are your thoughts?

I was extremely impressed with it. It's a fantastic integrated and heads and shoulders above other Class Ds I have tried.

Unfortunately mine has now developed a fault.

On using the Phono Stage (MC), the left channel is silent for at least 20 seconds. During which time, I can hear some hiss and what can only be described as a sine wave sound increasing and decreasing in pitch until it builds to a crescendo and finally goes silent.

Currently looking to get it repaired under warranty...

Cheers

@ricevs , Thanks for clearing that up. I only looked at the specs and reviews and looked at the shots and videos of the innards, concentrating on the G700 as I intend to buy the M2 version when it finally comes out in December. 

Though there are few reviews out there, all of them speak well of them.

All the best,
Nonoise

@stephencowslip, addressing the original question - "  which input should I be utilizing? " ... use the SL-G700 in front of the SU-R1000.
The G700 Output has both XLR and SE output.
Use the G700 as your Network Transport as much as possible for Streaming Duty as the services would allow ( loose the Razzy ).  

@stephencowslipI'm really sorry to hear that, I just got my new turntable that has balanced XLR connections which I intend to be using on the phone MC inputs. I really hope I don't encounter anything like this, but please keep me posted on what comes of your repair.

I honestly feel my time with the g700 had me so enamored with it considering the sound Improvement compared to my previous integrated amplifier, that now the r1000 needs a little time to grow and impress me while I listen to it.

I however committed the grand audiophile / Hi-Fi sin and swapping out every single component in my whole system for all different things within a matter of a month, so I'm completely at a loss as far as what I don't like, do like, and what is responsible for what I'm hearing.

@georgehifi I always find your posts very helpful and informative regardless of whatever misspeak takes place. So thank you for your post, thank you also for clarifying everything @ricevs the knowledge level of so many people on these forums really does impress me.

Side question, so the AKM chip in the r1000 then is just part of Technics own proprietary analog to digital conversion?

I don’t think there is anything "proprietary" in the AKM A/D circuit that Technics is using. Just using the AKM chip. Of course, the power supply used and the input stage used affects the sound.......so, in that sense everyone one who uses a particular chip will have a "one of a kind....in house design".

@georgehifi I always find your posts very helpful and informative regardless of whatever misspeak takes place.

Your welcome (or should that be "you are" or even "you’re") who cares!!!!!!!

Don’t have autocorrect, and it get’s across even with misspeak.
But seeing it’s bought up yet again, I’ll react just this once.

You have to understand I’m an Aussie, and couldn’t give a ratz a**e, (an Aussie polite slang saying for something much stronger).
Things like colour is wrong in the US but correct here, UK and Canada???????
And seeing we were all once British subjects at the start I think colour is the correct way.
Here "they’re" is the abbreviation for "they are" (numerous folk)
"their" (singular person).
You Yanks always pull me up on it, and to be honest I couldn’t give a ratz ****.

Cheers George

Shouldn’t digital coax into the SU-G700 be the best option because it avoids the D/A conversation step from the CD Player or Streamer?  Meaning why feed an analog signal into SU-G700 just to be converted back to digital?

SU-R1000 (Integrated) and the Technics SL-G700 (CD Transport).

So yeah I would agree coax out to the SU-R1000.

Avoid the other steps.

..umm, in audio as with life, "less is (often!) more" 

This is kinda of opposite of the basic "keep it simple" conventions, but when I had my SU-G700 (which did it's own internal digital to analogue magic) I actually preferred the sound of running my Innuos Zenith USB to my Gustard X26 pro, then balanced analogue XLR outs to my SU-G700, which did a analogue to digital conversions yet again.

It had a noticeable sound signature change which was even more detailed, wide and deep regarding the overall sound field, but gave a slight hint of veiled reverb on vocals, more noticeable with long listening sessions and less natural sounding. This made some noticeably good, yet sometimes unaturally forward changes with what sounds you were hearing as being more forthright in recordings versus others that became more distant. It definitely made me hear familiar songs with a very new presentation which was very entertaining.

It was such a change that it caused me to actually have to switch filters on my X26 Pro, which I had never done previously before that. So I do feel that there is some nuance to the analog to digital conversion within these integrated amplifiers by Technics that could very well translate into actual sonic signature changes that you can perceive.

So experimenting to your liking is obviously something that is totally worth doing too. You might surprise yourself and find out that you prefer the balance outputs into your R1000 versus the direct digital feed as I did while using the G700.

I do listen to a lot of highly layered, and maybe more digital music and feel that this does give me a little bit more of an interesting listen to the bulk of the music I enjoy. However acoustic, orchestral, and more minimalist music too took on a more interesting sound field that was altered from what i typical heard, but I do feel that maybe some sound purists may take issue with some sonic alterations of these switchbacks from analog, to digital, to analog have.

Use the USB input ... Berry Pi / Upgrade Power Supply or an Upgraded Streaming source.

@ja_kub_sz,
Thanks for pointing that out. Practically all the reviews I've read on it had the reviewer assuming that since the Technics immediately digitizes the incoming signal, why bother using the analog inputs from a CD player, as they felt it was too many conversions to take.

One reviewer did do it that way and like you, found it to be different, but not really better or worse. I'm really looking forward to trying Coax, Toslink and Cinch (RCA) inputs. I have a feeling that they will all sound great in their own way. Different, but great.

All the best,
Nonoise

I have the r1000 and are now auditing it with a metronome streamer (coaxial). Before with a computer via USB. Any one interested in my findings let me know. 
KR

andy

@ricevs question, if the Technics reference line all use an ADC, and convert everything to PWM "when dealing with analog signals, a 192kHz/24bit high precision A/D converter is used to ensure high performance." Would this then effectually make external DAC's useless?

The DAC goes digital to analog and the Technics goes analog to digital to analog via the ADC, which seems redundant if using an external DAC.

This correct?

A lot of reviewers took it as conventional wisdom that using analog outs on the source would be redundant if everything is converted to digital in the Technics. Michael Lavorgna (twitteringmachines.com) tried it both ways and found he preferred some one way and some the other. 

He implied not to overthink it and just enjoy the best presentation you like. I got the impression that it's going to be different from CD to CD.

All the best,
Nonoise