Why do old tubes sound better than current tubes?

I picked up a few of the new Genalex 12AX7GENGP tubes from NS and did an audition between them and the 04/60's Telefunken I was using in my C500T.

Guess what -- even though still early, and the Genalex have only 5 hours on them or so since the swap out -- I like what I'm hearing & so, they remain in the MC slots.

Impressive so far folks.

Bob

We use tube curves based on the old tubes to design gear. Modern tubes behave slightly differently and most certainly the Russian tubes are NOT direct drop-in replacements for old Mullard designs. Russian Tubes today can handle more current in many designs and require it to sound good.
Much of the NOS stuff is fraud and nonsense IMO, as many of the "better" sounding tubes have no bass or treble thus softening a truly nasty speaker,cartridge or CD player and making an awful system palatable. That is, when the NOS tube is what it has been labeled or is not a completely worn out "pull".

Richard

Why do old tubes sound better?

They have more experience. ;-)

I think it’s simpler still. Especially if you think about the times the vintage tubes were made.

Demand. Materials. QA.

Back in the 40’s, 50’s, & even in the 60’s, times were different. The thinking was more geared towards making a better product than a cheaper one more often than not. Materials too weren’t in short supply usually, nor were these materials skimped upon employing mere percentages of this or that instead of using 100% of them. Quality control too was on a higher level as well I would think. During those times, sales were generated by producing ‘better’ and not quite so much as making the ‘faster and cheaper’ products, though the latter always will be a facet of business.

Probably as important too, the apathy level on the job was lower than it is in the workplace these days and may well have played a significant part in the whole of things.

True too, those original ‘tube magicians’ that were around then aren’t around now, nor is the content of their heritage. Doubtless few magicians’ apprentices were getting on board in the business as silicon was becoming all the rage in the late fifties and sixties when the transistor came into being. So I suppose it came down to a main precept of business, ‘demand’.

You gotta know too, tube makers were almost like VHS machine & tape makers… lots of brand names but scant few actual makers. RCA was a giant in the tube industry, and their plans changed in house as well in which direction they would be going forward with.

That old adage “They don’t build them like they used to!” still has merit and reasons why.

There are some pretty decent tubes being made today though. Even in Russia. I have some and enjoy them a lot. CED Winged C EL34. I’m thinking about trying some of the KT 77s too as mentioned above… maybe.

In the 9 pin arena matsushita Elec. Made some back in the 70’s that I feel are on par with some of the far earlier Amperex 7308 & 6922s. I had some of them a while back.

On the flip side, I tried some of the Tung Sol 5881 re-issues and sent them back quickly.

As for the lable NOS…. I feel that too is more myth than fact. 50, 60, & as much as 70 year old tubes no one ever used? Really. How do you know? You had them in the closet for all of that time? Sure.

With tubes though, it’s as much about the vendor as it is about the tube itself. There’s one or two vendor’s I simply WILL NOT buy from again. Period. There are other’s of course that I’ll accept whatever they sell me as golden, and trust implicitly.

… or it could just be things change.

Perhaps tube topology designers ought to alter the other ingredients in their designs so as to attempt to recapture nostalgia by utilizing these newer tubes instead of emulating the ‘SS like’ sound so commonly found in today’s tube amps. After all, tubes are tubes and should IMHO have a distinct voice well apart from that of chips and silicone.

thanks for the responses, all - this was quite informative. i ask as i have just purchased an aesthetix calypso and find it to be an exceptional preamp, however, have read that tube rolling with particular NOS tubes can make it even better. i was considering telefunkens, but was curious as to what it was specifically that made the old tubes sound better. sounds like there's some lore/nostalgia, some materials, and some design (component and tube) that factor in here.

My experience and that of many Doshi Alaap (preamp) owners is diametrically opposite to Viridian's, which leads me to believe that the design of the component is a critical factor in which tubes work best.

If a component is designed and executed from the ground up with a modern tube in the circuit, as Nick's designs are, then that tube may provide the best performance. I've done plenty of NOS tube rolling and Nick and other owners have done more. I've found one vintage line stage tube that slightly outperforms its current production equivalant in some sonic areas, though not all. But in both phono stage tube positions no NOS tube compares with readily available, fairly inexpensive new tubes from the likes of JJ.

In a vintage component, or a modern component designed around vintage tubes, the opposite may apply. I doubt there's any other hard and fast rule about old vs. new that we'd get much agreement on.

The best answer I have ever heard is that some of the coatings used in the olden days are too environmentally unfriendly to be used in modern production. Another thing that you cant discount is the knowledge gained by experience of the toobe makers of old; trade secrets, lost in the sands of time :) Also, people were forced to use their BRAINS in those days.

I am happy to hear that at least some new production tubes are getting rave reviews but I remain skeptical about preamp tubes. I have seen so called preamp tube shootouts where the reviewer tested one tube of each type and drew concrete conclusions from such a limited sample. Anybody who has ever built gear or rolled a lot of tubes knows that two good preamp tubes from the same production code can sound vastly different - not to mention sonic differences due to minor changes in plate and heater voltages.

Mike

The secret is inside. Quality of wire, cathodes, plates, durability...
Low noise (ask Aesthetix Callisto owners, they can tell you something about that), low microphonics, maybe shock resistance and so on.
forget the pricing for NOS, turn back the time 50 years and try to imagine you have in your left hand a Telefunken, Made in Germany and in your other other hand you have a modern Sovtec, Made in Russia, China or in other dark countries.
Do you really think they are equal? :-)
I know the answer. :-)

But we can't make money with old tubes, so let's be happy what is available today. It isn't that bad.
But not equal. I tried some modern tubes, great for the money, no doubt, but fantastic?
Fantastic is something different. But it depends on the quality of the System to hear these differences. I hate the NOS prices, I also bought a set of modern ones too with them to compare. I got my result.

I also believe the tide has turned in favor of the new tubes. You can get on the boards and read all you want about the "Holy Grail" tubes of yesteryear but I gotta tell ya, many of the new tubes are simply fantastic. I'll be reporting on this subject in TAS and on the AVGuide site. Frankly, it's great news and we all win.

Peter Breuninger
Sr. Writer, The Absolute Sound

I think the tide is turning a little. The Genelex/Gold Lion reissues (Russian), for instance, are gaining real respect. I've personally replaced "Holy Grail" Mullard xf1 EL34s with Genelex KT77s because the new tubes sound quite a bit better in my amps. And the Sovtec 12AX7LPS is a winner. The reputation of many of the old tubes is, IMHO, a combination of performance and mystique/nostalgia. We're paying a lot for the latter.