2. amps-preamps
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World's best Pre-amp for $10K and above?

Looking for the HOLY GRAIL in Audio? Here it is. I'm in my early sixties and retiring to my final system, which I was going to purchase during the past twelve months and decided to put on the brakes, and investigate whats out there as the most advanced engineered high end audio products for the money in the market place. As far as I'm concerned, the two top engineers in the world for the best Amp and Preamp at low prices are Bent Holter with Hegel Audio in Norway and Roger Sanders with Sanders Sound in Colorado. Why? The Hegel P-30 Pre-amp is a game changer, and will easily compete with Pre-amps at $30K and above. The FM Acoustics 268 Preamp that retails for $107K, uses a technology thats called "feedforward" instead of feedback.
Amps and Pre-amps since the early 80's have all used either global feedback, zero feedback or local feedback to filter out noise and lower distortion by sending and filtering the feedback current to filter capacitors or or an extra filter transformer. A small amount of voltage feedback occurs at the output stage in amps and preamps which goes back into the parts and boards causing noise and distortion which smears the quality of the music.The best Preamps in the world all have S/N noise ratios at 125 db's or above. The Hegel P-30 Preamp uses the same feedforward technology as FM Acoustics but is a more current design that Bent Holter calls "Sound Engine" patented technology that eliminates feedback which is why the P-30 Preamp has a S/N ratio of 132 db's, which has never been accomplished in high end audio with a Preamp costing $10K or below. The same applies to Roger Sanders Magtech amplifier which uses a patented linear voltage regulator that controls and regulates voltage with no excess voltage going back into the amp causing heat and distortion problems. The amp puts out 900 watts into 4ohms. Krell makes a pair of mono blocs that also use a similar voltage regulator. The amps are $100K a pair. HERES THE PERFECT SOLID STATE SYSTEM. A Hegel P-30 Preamp. A Sanders Magtech amp, A pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. The worlds finest SACD player, the Playback Designs MPS-5, designed by Andreas Koch, who invented SACD technology when he worked for Sony. He built the worlds first outboard DAC in 1982 and is legend in digital engineering. The MPS-5 is the most analog sounding player on the market which costs $17K. The Hegel P-30 is only $7500.00 and the Magtech amp is only $5K. The Aerials are $10K. Buy the solid core cables from Morrow Audio. They are low capacitance cables which matches up perfectly with these components. This combination sounds like the very best tube and solid state gear on the market. The whole system will cost about $42K but will sound as good as any system costing $200K. All of these products are game changers. If you want better looking cabinets and faceplates, then blow your money, but you will not get better performance for what this system has to offer. It is the HOLY GRAIL you are searching for and there is no better combination for the total cost of the system.
audiozen
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,457 posts
 
I have trouble accepting the value proposition of very expensive pre-amps these days in general.

Not that each might not sound very good and seem worthwhile on their own, but the job of a pre-amp at its core is not that complicated. Some will argue a passive done right is as good as any even.

So, from a purely technical perspective, I do not understand the design rational behind a very expensive pre-amp, other than that is what some will look for, so there is a market.

I'd think it better in teh traditional vein of audiophilia to keep things as simple as possible, passive with good volume control if needed perhaps even, but not much more beyond that circuit-wise in even the worst case might really be needed to maintain certain electrical parameters needed to integrate well with other components.

Its the integration end to end that seems key, for me. Not how much money and circuitry is invested in any particular device.

Just wondering.....
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,530 posts
 
The preamp is the heart of a system and in my experience the difference maker in my myriad of systems over the years.

Think of it this way. No reason for separate amps, preamp, dac, conditioners, as they could all be put into one box. We buy separates because they sound better. Each component can be executed in a more fleshed out and complete manner with separates. A sound card volume control stuffed into the same box as the dac or amp simply does not sound as good as a well executed active preamp. Volume control can certainly be handled in a one box integrated fashion, but no way it sounds as good as my tube regulated, tube output, monster power supply, active preamp.

At least not in my systems, to my ears, and in my room :).

Some like the sound of passives or built in volume controls in a dac, and for them great! Others of us would rather not spend the extra money on an active, but cannot live with the "different" sound of these simple attenuators.

So no, the the total dollars spent has nothing to do with it. It's all about the resulting music from the complete system. For me and many others a great preamp is the only or best means to our hunger for great sound/music.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,457 posts
 
Granny,

No doubt, many feel the same way as you, wanting to build around a good active pre-amp.

But there are clearly other ways to do it that involve no or lesser investment in the functions of a pre-amp, which nowadays is often merely to switch sources and control volume.

Granted there are many more bells and whistles possible in a pre-amp, but those are teh core things most must do. Audiophile preferences has already stripped away most of the other features of pre-amps past, like filters, tone controls, etc.

So I just wonder, for those two things, how much cost is justified? If I go with a minimal pre-amp, passive or active, what does it take to really just do those two things well? There are other parts of the system that might be integrated well and tweaked to produce the desired end sound as well, perhaps? THat is what my gut tells me anyway.

AN interesting experiment would be to undertake achieving a certain preferred sound with two unique systems concurrently for the exact same cost for comparison, one using an expensive preferred lovely sounding pre-amp, and another a less expensive minimalist, maybe even passive pre-amplifier.

Could both systems be made to achieve similar result for same or less money? Might one be able to achieve better results at the particular price point?

I have not done this experiment so I do not know, but my technical gut tells me I should be able to achieve desired results both ways, if both are done right.

I would think it possible to reduce the cost of the pre-amp in the "minimalist" pre-amp system, especially for just one or two sources, even more no volume control on pre-amp is needed for digital, and then even invest that money elsewhere for better results, if done right.

I may give it a shot someday. I have several pre-amps around the house already I could try with. I do not own any passive pre-amps. I do have Squeezebox Touch devices with built in digital volume controls that I could use without pre-amp, at least to try.
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
If I could configure a system without an active preamp and get the sound I aspire to I'd do that in a heartbeat. Based on considerable listening experiences it hasn't happened. For what I find to be essential sonic attributes for my system an active is irreplaceable. They are capable of reproducing music in a manner that I have not heard approached in their absence.
For those who believe that passives or direct source to amplifier is as good or better I say congratulations, good job and continue to enjoy what you have. This method wouldn't satisfy me and I'd be overtly aware of all that's missing from the music. So there'll always be two camps regarding this issue. I want what I consider a complete and realistic sound and thus far only the very good quality actives deliver.
Charles,
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,530 posts
 
Charles and I are on the same page and no other way to achieve the music we want without the pre of our dreams. No buffer, no other combo etc... I have tried does it. I wish it weren't so, but it is up till today.

I remain open minded will will try other "things" in the future.
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