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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I put back in the Mundorf caps in the midrange. What is noticable is the less noise. I remember reading McIntosh quoting higher signal to noise ratio out of there amps using poly caps. This is easy to understand the only thing that would concern me is yes the S/N ratio is higher but what happens to the signal? Is it kind of a CD thing where the noise is lowered but the signal is compromised and the "number" looks better on paper.

I do appreciate the lower Mundorf noise floor. (much lower than vintage) It does improve bass as it reduces noise. PWK had once said there is noise even in a hall to record. I often wonder if that is some of the fake sound to poly caps are they just too quiet? (but Duelund does not sound fake and is very very quiet) Is the sound of poly's unaturally quiet? The friend who liked the all vintage foil caps crossover at first likely thought the reverb sounded like what his mind was expecting things to sound. When you hear a band live it is always a noise filled affair with tons of reverb.

So I guess in a way caps would suit the type of music you listen to and what you want for sound. That is why there is vintage only guys and I suppose they like a "real" sound and lots of reverb.

If one mostly listened to classical you for sure would not want lots of rock concert reverb.

What started this thread was the speakers I always loved I was not liking anymore. Was it me? (getting into my 40's) and not wanting to hear a rock concert all the time. Listening to different music with a different desire. Or were the caps worn out? The tweeter caps for sure produced massive noise!

When the thread first started I prefered the Linn (non horn) sound. The soundstage was bigger and set back farther and was not coming at you like horn speakers.

Now with the tweeter caps and vintage tube the favorite went back to the horns. The Linn's sound very harsh and have almost no upside.

I have now put in an all Mundorf crossover. I will also put in a analog front end with SS later.
face
516 posts
 
I've only tried the MR's, Sonic Cap Gen I and II, Dayton, and Solen so far.

I emailed Tony Gee about the MR's a week or two ago. Here was his response:
"Hi Mike,

I am not completly finished testing them yet, but so far I find the Clairy Cap MR to be very spatious, they have a very wide and tall image with lots of detail and at the same time they ar quite neutral and smooth. I will probably place them above the Clarity Cap DTAC.

regards,
Tony"

I'm curious to see his final rating since he rated the DTAC a 10.5, Mundorf S/O 10, S/G 11, S/G/O 11.5.

Mike
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Thats very interesting.. But I bet they are in the 11.5 rating probably equal, I would take the MR purely based on build and future reliability with no OIL.. Especially if in an electronic piece vs. speakers.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Great work Mike.

I guess the Clarity Cap is very, very good. How does there price compare to Mundorf range? One thing I do find strange is Tony's assesment of Mundorf range and Tempo's? Tempo likes that Supreme better than SIO and Tony places each more expensive Mundorf higher. I have heard many not like Silver/Gold? I do see Tony does not like all foil caps and really just the Duelund's stand out to him.

My biggest concern is that the CAST is better than the already excellent VSF. A nightmare to me would be that the CAST is not as good at more money. Tempo doesn't like SIO more at more money. So $ do not always equal better.

I am running an all Mundorf crossover now with one tweeter SIO the rest Supreme. I have tried on just tubes so far but will try with SS. My LP12 was my main listening and CD just as back-up.

The Mundorf is very good compared to the Bennic in the Linn. All those cheap crossover parts just sound cheap! I am trying to compare Mundorf to just Bennic. If I compare to Duelund/vintage I get frustrated.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
I would with an educated assessment of what I have experienced say the CAST vs. VSF in a very critical or higher power application will most likely have an edge in some cases, again depending on the application..

However I have experienced as with many things I really know that the VSF in a speaker vs. a Cast I would give the edge to the VSF simply sonically being not too much of a good thing or whatever, and the fact it is definitely at the helm via point of diminishing returns already I am sure, and I feel the same with the MR caps, Even the audio note silver due to cost, or the V-cap would be a turn in the wrong direction in my opinion regardless just based on cost to performance difference alone. Especially looking at the type of speakers or overall frequency range we are talking about here... I still feel the best for the money but impossible to use in most applications due to the physcial size is the Clarity MR now.
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