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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I am frustrated and confused.

This is not what I expected to find out.

The most important thing in an inductor is dampening. The vintage inductor hard as a rock with the wax paper dampening. Much smoother especially in the mid range.

I can not understand why only Duelund, Jensen and Jantzen that I can find do proper inductors? I think Jantzen uses a poly in there that rings alarm bells to me!

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/image/Wax%20Coil/About%20Wax%20Coil.pdf

The North Creek is coming out and vintage back in. The really the big test will be is Duelund WPIO better than a vintage inductor???

This will be the second time the fight will be with Duelund vs. vintage and not any new part.

I do hope Duelund wins as I will have wasted $$$.

The frustrating part of this rebuild is the poor qaulity of most of today's parts.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/inductor_solen12.html

That Solen inductor looks like wire wrapped around a toilet paper roll with some cheap ties!

I guess I know why old Klipschorns cost $4k (here in Canada) 30 years ago.

In today's parts you are looking at a Jensen (my best guess) for the woofer inductor to be the same as original. A Duelund Aluminum VSF for the mid range and 2 Duelund Aluminum VSF for the tweeters.

This crossover would cost around $1200 to $1500 to be the same or slightly better. My guess is even the Duelund Aluminum VSF tweeter caps are better. Bob Crites sells the crossovers (with poly caps) for $285 but you need to add about $1k for Duelund Aluminum foil in oil to get back to spec.

A new amplifier scares the crap out of me. It could be loaded with cheap plastic! Do new output trannies have a plastic bobbins?

Anyone ever dealt with Maple Shade? They give a 30 day money back guarantee.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/tubegear_hub.php
hifisoundguy
630 posts
 
Break-in time for the QuickSilver GOLD tweak will be different for every system. Some will sound really good after 28 to 45 days..others will take 60 to 75 days or more! We believe this is one of the best things you can do to a speaker for better sound!
dgarretson
2,599 posts
 
The moniker quicksilvergurl is as yet unclaimed.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I see Tony has updated his site.

A couple noted changes Mundorf Supreme down to 9 from 10 (I think)

The Silver in Oil down to 10.5 (I thought 11)

Most importantly is the CAST is up 14! That is more like it. I thought the rating would be 15 when it came out as they are much better than even the VSF. (in noise reduction)

I would not be surprised to see Tony change the ratings again. Once you get a grasp on what these caps do. I suspect he is getting more synergy. Foil caps work better with more foil caps.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I am looking into possible reasons why the vintage inductor sounds much smoother.

The NC inductor gives and takes away. Yes it has more (low end) detail but the down side is the noise factor. One of the biggest differences is the hard sound and how all the S's become SSSSSSS's. There is a hard ringing to the sound which becomes frustrating. Detail you know is there, but hard detail.

The vintage (wax paper) is more muted in sound but much smoother in the mid range. Much more musical.

I suspect resonance. One of the biggest surprises to me was the difference in resonance from the VSF to CAST. Astonishing is the best word. How the world's #1 cap could make the world's #2 cap seem noisy! I was shocked at how much noise was coming though from even a very, very good cap.

I suspect that is why the NC can not compete with a vintage wax paper inductor. There is no internal method to deal with this resonance. One wire just resonates against the other.

What I did not understand (until now) is that the woofer circuit is very critical. I thought all I was dealing was low freq. This is clearly not the case. The inductor resonates a high freq that comes through the woofer. The problem is the woofer is not designed for it.

The NC inductor removed all of the gain from the VSF and CAST capacitors gave in the mid range and tweeter.

The reason I am doing this part by part. One poly cap in the mid range and 80% of the Duelund tone was gone. Wrong inductor and you think you have problems with your mid and tweeter caps.

This I never suspected. If I had a hard noisy sound I would go after the tweeter caps as the culprit. I am shocked it could very well be the woofer inductor.

Tony really needs to do inductor reviews of this critical part.

I wish I had ordered the Duelund CAST inductor when I got my Duelund caps. Back then you did not have to give your right arm for the CAST inductor.

I think I have a grasp on what that inductor would mean and it is not all about the bass.
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