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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Hi Joe

I will give you the long and short of the thread to keep you from reading so much.

Thread starts off I was selling a set of vintage Klipsch Lascala's (Alnico magnet foil cap vintage)

When selling a guy who was buying them showed up with a vintage Fisher tube amp (untouched) It did not sound all great, yet I was VERY intrigued. This was the basic system that is very common in the U.S. a set of Khorns and vintage tube amp. It sounded much more real than my S.S. gear. It sounded more real than the very expensive tube amps and speakers I have heard.

So a bought the tube amp and did a rebuild of the tired crossover of the Klipsch. (to stunning results I might add)

Started off with Sonicaps. Then Mundorf Supreme's and then Silver in Oil. Then I tried Duelund VSF and they were distinctly different. Very natural and real sounding. Then CAST, same sound but MUCH less noise. I go on to note their is MUCH more resonance in caps than I would have ever thought. (even from VSF to CAST it was hard to comprehend)

The thread goes on with me commenting on how the poly caps ALL had a distinctly plastic sound. I then find out Steen Duelund had said the same thing. (hence the reason for his wonderful caps)

I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic. Also noted that I could not listen to one speaker that was foil caps and one that was poly at the same time. It was almost like the speaker's were out of phase.

Frederik (from Duelund) could not say for sure but thought that plastic caused a static build-up?

I could mix and match Duelund and vintage foil caps no problem but not put in a poly cap.

I feel that no plastic is the way to go. Steen Duelund also likes Mica caps. This is what is in the vintage for small values. So I decide to just recap the Fisher.

Others on here have posted that they really like the Clarity MR cap and some think it just as good or better in some ways to Duelund VSF.

I had noted that when mixing Duelund and other poly caps in the crossover you do not get the full Duelund (effect) of tonality. I also noted that same effect when using S.S. and Duelund, better tonality but not the same as when using all foil in the tube amp. (meaning there seems to be a foil synergy)

Others noted that Duelund CAST Silver was even better albeit at a very expensive price.

Then the thread goes on to try inductors. I have only tried North Creek 10 guage but have Duelund WPIO being made.

The North Creek is not a bad inductor more open sounding than the wax paper steel laminate vintage inductor but the North Creek has a hard sound and can ring? High freq hardness. I am sure much better than most inductors.

So Joe that will save you much time.

Now what are your feelings?

How do you feel on plastic? Is it evil? (as far as tone)

I noted that all poly caps are much quieter than vintage foil caps even if the poly caps have poor tone.

Do the Teflon caps have the same static build up?

Phono stage is poor in the Fisher's and maybe all vintage amps. I feel maybe because the foil coupling caps are poor (meaning far too noisy) as the vintage foil in the Klipsch were wayyyyyy too noisy.

So that is where it is. I am thrilled with the line stage and can not believe how real it sounds and am putting in coupling caps in the phono stage.

I would like to go with lower resonating foil caps (sticking to the no plastic theme) but this of course is very costly.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 
There's quite a lot to address here, so I may just comment on one issue at a time.

In terms of materials, all caps contain two layers of foil, which can be silver, copper, tin, or aluminum. That's the material which is electrically charged. The insulating material, which separates the foil layers, can be paper (treated with wax, oil, or other substances), plastic (such as Teflon, polystyrene, polypropylene, mylar, or polyester), something more exotic (silk), or some combination of the others. More expensive caps use individual, interleaved (or inter-wound) layers of conductors and insulators. Those are the "film-and foils." The less expensive ones spray or coat the conductive material onto the insulator. Those are called "metalized."

So, because they perform totally opposite functions, foil vs. plastic really isn't the correct vocabulary. What we're looking at is a wide mix of material combinations and fabrication techniques, some of which sound better than others when used in perfectionist audio components.

It's only been in the past 30 years that the concept of capacitors having distinct sound characteristics has come about. Traditionally, the best insulators, like Teflon and polypropylene, have been considered the best sounding, but they are also the most difficult and expensive to wind. Exotic combos, like the Jupiter or Duelunds are very recent developments.

What sets the Duelunds apart is their completely different approach, both in materials and fabrication. For the curious, there are papers by both Steen Duelund and Harvey Rosenberg (who was an early champion of Mr. Duelund's research) which can be found online. They go into much more detail about the theory behind his approach than one can easily summarize.

The other big variable is high voltage vs. passive circuit applications. Our experiments showed that the same cap used in high voltage electronics often sound very different when used in a passive speaker crossover (and vise versa). Also, putting them together in different combinations in the same circuit can greatly alter the end result. Throw in all of the other parts that make up a circuit (tubes, transistors, resistors, inductors, transformers, copper or silver wire, solder, and so on) and there's no end to it.

Basically, we found that certain caps (as well as other components) consistently sounded better when used in certain positions, combinations, or passive vs. active circuits. The Duelund caps and resistors are certainly at the top of the list, but others worked well, too. The issue of resonance in a capacitor is also worth considering and this may be a characteristic of how tightly a cap is wound, as well as the type and thickness of the insulating material. This may be why the "new" VCap TFTF sounds better than the original -- the Teflon insulation is substantially thicker.

For a long time we thought that foil-type inductor coils, such as those made by Alpha-Core, were the best to use. However, Dave Slagle pointed out to us that, abstractly speaking, these were built like capacitors (layers of foil wrapped with concentric layers of plastic insulation) and that we should stick to wire-wound inductor coils, like the Solen air-core. I actually did a direct comparison of Duelund's original wire-wound, iron-core, toroidal inductor with the Alpha-Core and preferred the Alpha-Core. This just shows that the ultimate proof is in the listening. Along those lines, my partner, Dr. Loesch, has historically preferred oil caps, but in our tests none of them really sounded as good as the film-and-foils.

My point is that there's really no "evil" material and that the reasons why we prefer one material or fabrication technique over another cannot always be applied as a general rule. To give you a more specific answer, as of this writing, I can't say that plastic, per se, has a sound that we can personally distinguish as plastic. Of course, we've never tried the Duelund caps or resistors in our electronics (the high voltage Duelunds weren't on the market when we were voicing our amp and preamp), so that view may change when we do.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 
Further thoughts:

While it's easy to become overly focused on one component or another, the audio system always needs to be considered as a unified whole. From the time the stylus enters the groove or the laser beam hits the pits, until the signal exits the speaker, there needs to be a philosophically balanced approach to the entire signal path. Until you've addressed the basics of every component in the audio stream in turn, it's often difficult to single out one factor or another in considering which upgrade will make the greatest sonic difference.

In other words, if you start with a flawed circuit design or mis-matched components, then even the best parts can never make up for this. You need to continually re-evaluate your overall strategy. BTW, I'm speaking abstractly here, so don't take this as being critical of your or anyone else's choices.

If you're starting from scratch, there are some premises which will set on the right track to begin with. For example, tubed phono tends to sound better than solid state, but there's a trade-off in the form of tube noise. In amplifiers, push-pull amps that use EL84 tubes and 5AR4/GZ34 rectifiers are all generally musical and easy to modify. Ditto with 2A3 or 300B SET amps. If your budget is limited, there are many $200-$500 sleepers out there, as well, including the Dynaco PAS-3, ST-35, plus any number of Fisher and Scott amps (look for the ones which use EL84's). For under 10% of the price, Tannoy Monitor series drivers from the 1960s-80s in custom cabinets can equal or better any $50K speaker on the market today.

Get the basics right and it's easy after that. Even without tweaks, you'll still have music.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Thanks Joe

That was excellent!

It is those very Teflons that I am looking at. The cost is much less on low value for electronics. 1/5 VSF and 1/10th that of CAST. This of course is a factor as I am keeping the speakers but am not sure about the amp.

As far as for inductors would not foil resonate much more than wire if the insulation and structure could not hold the foil dead still?

Duelund did a wire wound Iron core? I did not know that? Right out of the play book of vintage?

Now as far as your partner prefering foil caps. This has been my arguement he may have prefered an oil cap but on an individual cap test you get not much of the oil benefit?
By this I mean he might like the oil caps (in a full circuit) yet if they were tested as a one part in a not all oil cap circuit you get the noise of foil in oil (which is higher) but not the tonal benefit. Where the oil caps tested in a all oil circuit?

"I can't say that plastic, per se, has a sound that we can personally distinguish as plastic".

Steen did feel that he could hear plastic in the cap? If I remember reading correctly.

"For example, tubed phono tends to sound better than solid state, but there's a trade-off in the form of tube noise".

I am glad to hear this at least is the norm. Hopefully a cap change will solve that for me?

I am glad to see that you have a wide time span and recognize some of the vintage bargains. One of the best things to happen to Audio is the internet. I often wonder if SET movement has not been aided by the internet. Only in a non commercial enviroment can one find out that vintage Tannoy's can compete with speakers costing 50k.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 

Volleyguy wrote, "I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic..."

Let me elaborate further. As mentioned above, to talk about "foil caps" vs. "poly caps" is to use a mixed metaphor. That is to say, all poly caps contain foil, so it's not an accurate way to differentiate them. Polypropylene and polystyrene, among other plastics, are dielectrics (insulators) which actually sound different from each other, while foil (which can be any number of metals) is a conductor. What you probably meant to say is that your argument is about the use of a paper dielectric vs. a plastic dielectric.

However, if you look at our survey, there are paper caps and plastic caps which both rate high and low. While the Duelund (paper) scores at the top, the Jupiter, also paper, does not. The same is true of the VCap TFTF (plastic), which scores at the top, and the CRC Teflon, which scores quite low. While the dielectric may be the same in each pairing, the sound is quite different. Note, however, that the Jupiter uses aluminum foil, which is also used in a few others that scored much lower, like the Jensen aluminum. Rather than single out a specific element for cheers or jeers, the difference is often in the way that element is used as a part of the whole.

What we were more concerned with, and which we were listening for, were issues like veiling (did it seem like a curtain, however slight, was separating us from the musicians), air (could we hear the space between the performers or envision the performance space, itself), detail (how clear were words, how closely could we follow individual instruments or voices), glare (did the extreme treble become shrill or congealed), tone (did violins sound like violins, pianos like pianos), and so on. That's the sort of vocabulary we used in our evaluations.

The question always was did the listening experience sound like live music or was something in the way. The concept of a plastic or paper sound was never mentioned and never considered as an issue.
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