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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 

Volleyguy wrote, "I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic..."

Let me elaborate further. As mentioned above, to talk about "foil caps" vs. "poly caps" is to use a mixed metaphor. That is to say, all poly caps contain foil, so it's not an accurate way to differentiate them. Polypropylene and polystyrene, among other plastics, are dielectrics (insulators) which actually sound different from each other, while foil (which can be any number of metals) is a conductor. What you probably meant to say is that your argument is about the use of a paper dielectric vs. a plastic dielectric.

However, if you look at our survey, there are paper caps and plastic caps which both rate high and low. While the Duelund (paper) scores at the top, the Jupiter, also paper, does not. The same is true of the VCap TFTF (plastic), which scores at the top, and the CRC Teflon, which scores quite low. While the dielectric may be the same in each pairing, the sound is quite different. Note, however, that the Jupiter uses aluminum foil, which is also used in a few others that scored much lower, like the Jensen aluminum. Rather than single out a specific element for cheers or jeers, the difference is often in the way that element is used as a part of the whole.

What we were more concerned with, and which we were listening for, were issues like veiling (did it seem like a curtain, however slight, was separating us from the musicians), air (could we hear the space between the performers or envision the performance space, itself), detail (how clear were words, how closely could we follow individual instruments or voices), glare (did the extreme treble become shrill or congealed), tone (did violins sound like violins, pianos like pianos), and so on. That's the sort of vocabulary we used in our evaluations.

The question always was did the listening experience sound like live music or was something in the way. The concept of a plastic or paper sound was never mentioned and never considered as an issue.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
In most cases, the correct way to differentiate would be to talk about pure metal foil vs. metalized foil for the conductive element. Meaning if the cap is made with a pure metal foil, such as copper or uses a metalized foil where a very thin layer of metal is damped upon a foil, which could be polypropylene, paper or otherwise.

And to talk about paper dielectricum vs. plastic dielectricum. Which as explained by Tempo is the insulating layer.

Then to say if a cap is wet or dry. A wet cap could be a paper in oil, a dry cap a normal metalized polypropylene.

And in the case of a wet cap to say if the impregnation happens under vacuum, or is simply "poured" into the cap.

This is of course very rough, an infinite numbers of papers could be written on the subject... :)
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
My apologies, had not seen the very thorough explanation that Tempo did.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 

I'm starting to read some of the recent posts and see that many of my comments have already been covered to one degree or another. For example, the link between Steen Duelund and Harvey Rosenberg, the Fisher EL84 amp, and so on. I was also going to comment that larger caps sound better, but that's been mentioned, too.

A few more random notes:

You're right about the cheap parts in most speaker x-overs. However, keep in mind that most x-overs have too many parts to begin with, so it's no wonder that cheaper parts are common. Commercial products are built to a price point and that's always been a problem for the audio perfectionist.

Regarding your EL84 amp, I'm not sure exactly what was done or who did it, but we spent a long time (years) mixing and matching different parts, including tubes, caps, and resistors, before hitting on the magic combination. Regardless of what we personally liked, to get the sound you love requires going through this type of round-robin on your own while listening in your own system. In order to understand how different parts affect the sound, I always caution people against making permanent changes without doing a personal comparison first.

As the amps and other components in our system became more refined, we went through these comparisons at least three times for every component. We typically made only one change at a time, which is why it took about eight years to feel that everything was fundamentally right. That was two years ago and we're still making improvements, mainly in the front end.

Also, running pentodes as triodes doesn't really change the sound that much, it mainly reduces the power. If you want a true triode sound, then it's best to use a true triode amp. When properly implemented, the EL84 is still the best of the pentodes and a good, musical performer. It will benefit from a tube rectifier, however, such as the 5AR4/GZ34. I recently bought an Olson Classic 40 amp (GZ34 + EL84's) for $200 and even with the crappy mods that the previous owner did, it still sounds musical.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Thanks again Joe

I will not even attempt to try triode then in the EL84.

I am glad you cleared that up on cap size mattering as well as I did take some ridicule on cap size not meaning anything as long as the value was right.

This makes me excited then on the coming Jensen Copper paper tube and Duelund VSF caps I have coming as they are 10x+ the original size and of a better metal (copper) as opposed to Aluminum or tin that the originals were. In my opinion there is really nothing good about a vintage capacitor except maybe it was of the right type. (tone wise)

As a complete amatuer at doing this stuff for my own enjoyment with not so much care about cost/benefit as commercial companies. This is clearly NOT something I would want to do as a job! As a audio perfectionist just trying to make something as good as possible with the cheapest parts possible and guess what the customer would hear/pay for would drive me nuts. A tough, tough job.

I understand why most commerical grade speakers like Steen said are all about the beauty of the box. It is the one area that new speakers can blow away the vintage speakers. Vintage speakers are available used at likely 10 cents on the dollar compared to new.

I am glad I am on the right path with doing the changes part by part. I am really done the speakers just waiting for the Duelund inductor then just wire up.

The amp I expect to be a mix of Jensen (paper tube) Duelund and maybe V-Cap Teflon. Then that will be done and to be honest I hope never to do this again in my life!

I have learned a lot, mostly parts quality really matters. People who do high end Audio work with all that listening and testing really earn their money.

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