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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy

Showing 50 responses by duelund_coherent_audio

duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

Yes he did, like them better, that is.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

The WPIO receive the same 5 day vacuum impregnation.

We do 12 awg normally, and 8 awg on special request. (It is not a cost effective solution)
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Face,

Thank you, it really means a lot to us, that customer's are satisfied with our products. Much more so, than I think customers realise when they are kind enough to let us know. Makes my day every time!

Frederik
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
No, you should under normal circumstances be fine. I use regular CASTs in my own preamp, and have been doing so for years.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

True, he did that untill his designs could be made to cope with DC. His main criteria was to get the midrange right, feeling that this was a neglected part of the frequency spectrum of available modern designs.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Charles1dad,

You're welcome, it's our fault to begin with.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
I haven't done so on my own, I solder as close to the cap as possible.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
I just go by typical customer feedback, and my own experience. I usually get a "What the ... happened!" mail on day 5.

Which is always nice, and makes my day everytime. :)
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Agree with Face, also remember a lot of components are not very well connected to the casing, so even if you damp the casing of a cap, the windings themselves might resonate all on their own.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Tar did not prove successful in our testing.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

It's just for the 630vs, to make them more easy to implement into electronics. If clients desire the old design, we still offer this on an order to order basis. Also special values, will typically be the old design.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Actually, he's asleep right now, so I'll pop one in between feeding- and diaper scenarios...

Thank you. :)

We will be doing flat copper cable, it's been in development for the past couple of years (on/off), we're not quite there yet.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Thanks,

I aim to keep my participations in fora low on publicity stunts, doesn't help you nor me...

Regarding, what is the most important part. I find that to be quite difficult to answer. In my years in audio I've come to the conclusion that quality matters. I know that sounds easy but instead of saying a CD-player is 20%, an amp 30% and speakers 70% ( I know the total gets too big ), I've found that if either component or link in the chain fails in some way or another it's going to be very detrimental to your sound quality, beyond what some simple % values may or may not suggest.

Whereas our components in place of others create a small, large, vast difference is again a difficult question to answer. Personally, it probably will not surprise you that I'm in the same camp as Volleyguy, Stormen and Fas948. However, the "art" of making a system is of course a matter of getting the foundation where you want it to be first and then go from there. For further elaboration some of Steen's articles are quite good, as you can see he spends quite a lot of effort talking about mathematical filter functions, cabinets, drivers, phase etc. His work with components started when he was done with all the other parts (done to his satisfaction, that is).

To clarify, I run what could be called a full Duelund CAST system, with CAST components in all parts of the chain. Do I believe this improves the sound more than other brands of caps, inductors and resistors, certainly. Do I also believe that the used chips, topology, cabinets, drivers etc. etc. may play just as big a role, certainly.

Att: Volleyguy: Thank you for the compliment, most people do not realise how much you value positive feedback as a small manufacturer. But even if a guy only buys 2 resistors from us, and subsuquently reports back he really likes them, it makes my day!

Best regards,

Frederik Carøe
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
I don't disagree at all, Steen aimed to take the best of the vintage technology and utilise it better.

Prior to his own designs, he used vintage designs such as paper in oils, and wax/paper types.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
And yes, I consider the quality of coupling caps quite important.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Hi,

Been following this thread with increasing interest, as you may well imagine. For the record is my participation welcome, or would you rather I keep away?

Best regards,

Frederik Carøe
Duelund Coherent Audio
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Thanks,

While I certainly appreciate the kind words about our products, I wanted to comment slightly on the comment Steen made about the relevant value of the cross over. What he meant at the time was that the cross over as a whole needs to be in order both with the filter function it provides and with regards to parts quality. Parts quality in itself doesn't do it, though as you can no doubt imagine I do consider it an overlooked part of the chain. Furthermore, I'm in accordance with the views put forward that a lot of other factors in the chain play a great deal of importance, it's one of the things that makes this such a fun hobby.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
"Frederik was the CAST developed for Burt's horn systems?"

He was certainly the guy, who prompted us to go beyond the VSF. I wouldnÂ’t say the caps were developed specifically for his speakers though. They do seem to be a good fit.

"Is that why I noticed so much noise difference from VSF to CAST is the exagerration of noise caused by horns?"

Well, I donÂ’t use horns myself, and notice quite a difference as well. I believe itÂ’s more a question of well designed speakers, than the choice of, ported, sealed, horns etc.

"This may be a touchy subject you may not want to answer and I understand, but the cost of CAST? Can they ever be mass produced? or VSF? Is it a volume issue or a manufacturing process issue? I remember reading Steen saying when the VSF came out that they only could be hand made."

They are certainly not mass produceable at the moment. I would say a mass production would only be possible if we were to develop our own kind of machinery, which is not currently feasible. Certainly, I would like to be able to do so in the future. However, this area of business is not typically something that creates large investment ability.

"Another question that has intriqued me is the noise reduction from VSF to CAST? Why? I for one did not expect it. Both modern caps and I understood noise reduction from vintage to modern but from top notch modern (VSF) to CAST I was not ready for. Is it the hardening process? Also have you reached the limits with CAST or is there still that same kind of noise reduction still possible?"

The CAST is special in the sense that we can harden it after the vacuum impregnation, something not feasible with the VSF. I hope in the future we will be able to take it further than the CAST. The CAST 630v cap is already using a more elaborate system than the regular CAST. We are researching different metal foils, paper types and CAST materials, those are other venues that may or may not yield improvements down the line.

"Could I expect the same kind of noise reduction on coupling caps in vintage tube amp to VSF or CAST that there is in the passive? or not the same magnitude?"

An impossible question for me to answer in good conscience. For one thing, I havenÂ’t heard the improvement you got. Secondly, I have no experience with your electronics. I use CAST myself in my electronics, and do not want to do otherwise, but if itÂ’s worthwhile for you?

"Thanks again."

A pleasure.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
As you correctly state, Steen was of the conviction that plastic was a malaise when it came to sound reproduction. He considered all statically chargeable materials imperfect in that regard. Stated popularly he meant only natural materials would create a natural sound.

His theories are certainly the reason why we use no plastic in our products. Be advised that his findings are based on listening tests, I cannot claim irrefutable evidence.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
I can sense, there's little chance we're going to disagree on your findings. :)
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Just to clarify, the cable is "baked" for several days.

It's not "oily" when the customer receives it.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

Baked means that the oil impregnation happens under heat, so the cable is dry to the touch.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
What's the gauge of your current inductor?
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

Regarding pricing:

The price of our inductors is based on the expenditure and working hours we spend, a lot like everybody else I presume.

The foil we require is quite expensive to procure, then the winding with paper and subsequent oil impregnation under vacuum for 5 days also cost us a pretty penny. (I believe we are the only ones to do this with inductors, though I may be wrong).

Finally, the casting proces is done entirely in house and takes another 5 days, everything done by hand.

This is not to boast about our own products, but a normal inductor often takes from 1 minute - 1 hour to make. We spend at least 14 days, where the inductor is actively "under way". Which in the end has an impact on cost.

Also since we typically deal in small quantities we find that buying raw materials tend to be expensive. An example is a pair of CAST 8 AWG inductors we made for an upcoming US speaker, where we had to buy a minimum quantity of foil much larger than the pair of inductors required.

Again, I hope this presentation will be seen as being in good taste. But since you asked directly about cost, I felt the need to elaborate.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Face,

I would concur.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Irish65,

I'll give the short version. We are using a new tube fused with our CAST material, which both lowers resonance and allows heat to better "escape" the resistive element.

Further, we are using a new type of glue around the resistor, which better controls resonances through means of a low Q nature.

Initial reception has been quite positive, which is always nice.

Att: Volleyguy, glad you like the Wpio, Steen was very fond of the design.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

That explains the 1 pc. inductor order that just turned up.

I thought the mono people, had finally caught up with us. :-D
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Dgarretson,

Well, I've got some cases where the manufacturer has published they use CAST themselves:

Tidal T1
Kaiser Kawero
Peak Consult (Momentum line)
Perfect8 Technologies
New American speaker, hopefully debuting at the Rocky Show.

Hope that helps.

Frederik
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
In most cases, the correct way to differentiate would be to talk about pure metal foil vs. metalized foil for the conductive element. Meaning if the cap is made with a pure metal foil, such as copper or uses a metalized foil where a very thin layer of metal is damped upon a foil, which could be polypropylene, paper or otherwise.

And to talk about paper dielectricum vs. plastic dielectricum. Which as explained by Tempo is the insulating layer.

Then to say if a cap is wet or dry. A wet cap could be a paper in oil, a dry cap a normal metalized polypropylene.

And in the case of a wet cap to say if the impregnation happens under vacuum, or is simply "poured" into the cap.

This is of course very rough, an infinite numbers of papers could be written on the subject... :)
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
My apologies, had not seen the very thorough explanation that Tempo did.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
76doublebass,

We are sharing a room with the Kaiser Kawero loudspeaker. It features a predominantly CAST based filter.

I hope to meet if you guys decide to show up.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Face,

Yes unless otherwise specified.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Ait:

Certainly not, but for the sake of not publishing too much information, would it suffice if I said, that they do differ a lot from the old carbon types, both in construction and sound.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
They are ready.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Thank you very much to the people following this thread who looked me up in Denver. Was great to see you.

Best regards,

Frederik
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Perhaps it is also worthwhile to consider, that not only did Steen start his audio life as a horn designer, but would weekly frequent live performances. This may explain his affinity for a "live" sound.

In all honesty, what else should a designer go for?
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

Steen did sign of on the CAST. They were the only caps he thought to be devoid of what he termed "False detail". Meaning details not present on the recording but added by the system/components, especially in the high frequencies.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleguy,

If I understand Ait correctly, it's a question if the equalizer should be used or not, more than a discussion regarding caps. So I really can't comment there.

I certainly, do not take your remarks as critical.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Ait,

I completely understand, if it didn't come across in my post, I'm sorry.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

"I think Jensen would be a much better choice then any poly cap"

No argument.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
"I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects".

This was a part of Steen's modus operandi.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Well, I couldn't really ask clients to pay more for the CAST than the VSF, if the sound was the same...? :)

The difference between the CAST and the VSF is in the internal and external damping.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
The oil is dried when you get the cable. It does not need to be wet, to perform its intended function.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Face,

I would concur.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
I believe, that what you are hearing is more down to the shape of the wire and difference in dielectricum.

We intend to do a copper cable constructed in the same way as our silver wire, which should make comparisons more straight forward, as you will be experiencing more like for like, than currently.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
We agree 100% :)
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Volleyguy,

If you'd bear with me, I would like to take issue with the term high res being applied to non resonance damped designs.

To my ears they are exactly the opposite. What they do is to add a sheen or glitter to all sounds which does not exist in reality, while this may sound Hi-Fi, it does not sound correct, which makes them low res IMO.

Best regards,

Frederik
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Steen was very much into horns. He rose to "fame" in Denmark in the 70's due to some diy horn designs published in the Danish magazine High Fidelity.

He always said, he's goal with everything he did, cross over design, parts, drive units was to take the best from single driver horns and fuse it with the bandwith of multiway speaker systems.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
That's what we do I guess. With your own impregnation and winding facility, we are afforded many options.

Rev II wire is available now.

Some clients use our resistors for amps as well.
duelund_coherent_audio
110 posts
 
Mingles,

We agree completely - I was just pointing out, that treating the casing for resonance, may not treat the actual component.
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