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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
theaudiotweak
2,801 posts
 
Thanks Undertow for your response. You, like me seem to make all the values plus or minus 1%. Do you believe that manufacturers go to the exacting component value matching that most contributors to this thread subject their own components to? I bet that manufacturers voice their product with a certain component installed without checking beyond the imprinted plus or minus 5% value. Maybe when we add our 5 cents to the value we are skewing the response from what the "Guru" said was the proper way. We trust our ears.

One thing that may not have been addressed here was the DCR values of upgraded inductors versus the original equipment.
Looking back in retrospect the dcr within a crossover especially one that is phase correct and time coherent the dcr value of an inductor must have been a part of the original equation. If you look at the swap out of a 14 gauge to an 8 guage inductor you will have a reduction in dcr of 55% or more. If you have several replacement inductors in a circuit and replace all with the same greater gauge can you maintain the original alignment and phase plot? Would you not change the overall critical damping of the speaker? The replacement dcr values would not be linear in there influence on many measurement aspects. I am not an engineer but I am a experienced and capable listener. I think I jacked some really nice speakers by swaping the original inductors for ones with much lower DCR. Inductor DCR variations within a speaker that is not phase and time aligned may not be as critical or as easily noticed or heard. You may have to adjust for Q and overall bass damping adjustments to get the bass corrected to your taste. My current speaker has a series crossover and has supplemental damping adjustments made by a tie rod screwed into the back of the bass driver and terminated and adjustable on the back panel of the speaker. This adjustment will compensate for all maner of things from wires to amps to furniture and acoustical rearangement as well as listeners musical tastes ...also variations of inductors and DCR. Tom
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Theaudiotweak,
Honestly, I don't think every speaker has the exact best value for their speaker... Many times I am sure they take the closest thing, and or plus minus up to 10%... And unless its a REALLY pricey speaker probably even in the 10,000 and up range I doubt they are hitting it dead on the head and tuning it with custom values if necessary to really tighten it up.

And for the most part for this thread I doubt most people are looking to crack open their 20 k pair of Ushers, or 30 wilsons etc... and replacing the crossovers...which these guys should have mirrored crossovers very accurate to each other with caps that lay in the upper range of cost anyway, not just caps of the shelf with the values printed, but actually measured by hand again and matched to the pair.

I guarantee with the way this thread started talking about Klipsch 5 k speakers etc... Yes you can do much better than whats in there including the actual values and quality changes. This is I am sure a cost more than just the fact they will not sit and tune it by ear for what sounds best. if it was a 20,000 dollar Usher speaker or something than not so sure, I do believe they go a bit further matching and using higher quality components.

Then again Klipsch sells the 20 k speaker now too, I have seen the crossovers which contain the Benic higher end caps, not too expensive so in a 20 k speaker it could be argued they are out of their league when you go into the nose bleed prices like that and expect at least something like a mid priced Clarity cap or mundorf in there, maybe the benic computer / audio grade caps sounded better in that speaker and the tried Duelunds and Mundorfs, but I doubt it :-)
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Undertow

I would really like to know what is in $20k and $30k speakers for crossover parts. My 5k newer speakers had just garbage and the older $5k Klipsch much better. The new speakers had el cheapo electrolytic caps in the crossover. (less than $50 in parts each for $5k speakers)

I am under the understanding that Klipsch new $20k speakers use just dirt cheap parts?

After all the tests I have done I would not buy a set of speakers without seeing the crossover. (at least not anymore) I can not even comprehend it anymore.

It would be really nice to hear what some guys with stock caps in pricey speaker have. I am quite curious.

Is there a correlation of what you pay for speakers and get for parts? I am of the Steen mindset it is mostly (for most companies) a looks or marketing thing.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Wilson site pics.

A blurred pic showing what looks like poly caps and cheap wire wound inductors with plastic ties to me? Is the pic blurred on purpose?

http://wilsonaudio.com/product_html/maxx_xover.html

Even in a set of $30k speakers what can a manufacturer spend on parts? I often hear 1/6th of retail price???

So wire, drivers, cabinets and all crossover parts for $5k and of course building and any R&D.

Is there really economy of scale in making new speakers? Can the big companies get there parts for a fraction of what we pay?
theaudiotweak
2,801 posts
 
Out of sight out of mind. Value is in measurements. A sand cast resistor measures the same as a Vishay foil or a Duelund. The sonic difference will make you jump out of your chair. If they can't measure the the benefit of brass fasteners over steel they sure as hell are not going to take the time to listen to the difference which is obvious. Tom
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