2. speakers
  3. 1211428524

Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Undertow

I would really like to know what is in $20k and $30k speakers for crossover parts. My 5k newer speakers had just garbage and the older $5k Klipsch much better. The new speakers had el cheapo electrolytic caps in the crossover. (less than $50 in parts each for $5k speakers)

I am under the understanding that Klipsch new $20k speakers use just dirt cheap parts?

After all the tests I have done I would not buy a set of speakers without seeing the crossover. (at least not anymore) I can not even comprehend it anymore.

It would be really nice to hear what some guys with stock caps in pricey speaker have. I am quite curious.

Is there a correlation of what you pay for speakers and get for parts? I am of the Steen mindset it is mostly (for most companies) a looks or marketing thing.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Wilson site pics.

A blurred pic showing what looks like poly caps and cheap wire wound inductors with plastic ties to me? Is the pic blurred on purpose?

http://wilsonaudio.com/product_html/maxx_xover.html

Even in a set of $30k speakers what can a manufacturer spend on parts? I often hear 1/6th of retail price???

So wire, drivers, cabinets and all crossover parts for $5k and of course building and any R&D.

Is there really economy of scale in making new speakers? Can the big companies get there parts for a fraction of what we pay?
theaudiotweak
2,801 posts
 
Out of sight out of mind. Value is in measurements. A sand cast resistor measures the same as a Vishay foil or a Duelund. The sonic difference will make you jump out of your chair. If they can't measure the the benefit of brass fasteners over steel they sure as hell are not going to take the time to listen to the difference which is obvious. Tom
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Volleyguy
Well I have seen many which use Rel, Solen etc... Those white body caps in Wilson are likely Rel, probably 5 bucks a cap on some of them, Rel cap last I know was based in California, make several OEM caps under several names, like the Audiocap Thetas, Multicap etc...

All from the same company. Maybe they are soniccaps which are also most likely made by Rel/Multicap as well. Audio research uses them too in electronics. However, that being said does not matter, the point is of course those parts are nowhere in range of what that speaker ultimately costs and most people would not know the difference.

If I personally was crazy enough to spend 50 k on a pair of speakers, then of course knowing what I do I would demand some higher cost parts which will never happen so I just don't buy them!

And I doubt wilsons 100 k per pair speaker uses Duelunds or anything near the cost of them either. These companies charge for their products based on advertising and engineering costs, not so much final material costs which can be high but not as much as you might think, labor etc... And energy used to produce the pair are the biggest costs, not material.

Much smaller and less known name companies charge based on if they use a Mundorf or whatever in the speaker. I know of some, they are good, but still not super cheap.

I can't think of the name of the company that uses Duelunds right now, I think Gryphon is one of them, but anyway the speakers of 80,000 plus a pair is about the lowest I have seen using obscene cost caps.

Regardless open a super high end speaker and some could be shocked that the crossover is worth 100 bucks that crossover is not even within range of the cost of the finished product. But Klipsch your lucky if you have 2 dollars invested in the pair of crossovers!
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I agree with all that you have said Undertow except in the older Klipsch with the foil caps autoformer.

The Klipsch foil in oil were the second best next to the Duelund VSF in the midrange.

The vintage Klipsch even had a iron core wax paper inductor. (wax paper being the key to reduce resonance)

Bob Crites uses just Sonicaps (which are very different from original) and an autoformer and inductor supposed to be exactly the same and charges $285 for AA's. My guess is it would cost around $500+ to even match original with foil caps of equal sound.

I do agree with you though in the sense my Linn speakers used dirt cheap parts around $50 for everything.

I bet if one looks the trend is to cheaper parts in the cabinet all of the time.

My crossover costs (not including parts not kept)

2 Duelund 2uf VSF $167.17
2 Duelund 2uf CAST $334.34
2 Duelund VSF 13uf $535
2 2.5mh Duelund WPIO inductors $437.61

Total x2
$2948.24 Plus 20 feet of Duelund Silver wire .5 $250
10 feet of Duelund copper wire $45

Total $3243.24

I can see why companies are looking cheaper! I love the sound of them but do understand why speakers are not made with expensive parts. Use Linn level parts and save $3200 each pair of speakers. Very inticing when the speakers "look" the same.
More to discover