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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
rfogel8's avatar
rfogel8
192 posts
 
Greetings, I've been following this thread, checking in every once in a while, and am wondering if some of you may have compared Mundorf foil, Goertz foil and the Duelands, all copper?

I'm working on a couple speaker projects and already have Dueland 5.0uF CAST caps on the way but am curious about other's experiences with inductors.

The speakers, 2-way satellites, use a Hiquphon OW4, 3/4" soft-dome tweeter and 5.5" ScanSpeak mid-woofer that's transmission line loaded. The external first order series crossover uses two inductors and one cap, that's it, no resistors on the tweeter mucking things up.

I've already built a couple pairs of these and in the past have used Mundorf Silver/Oil caps and Goertz 12AWG copper foil inductors. I'll add that I'm not unhappy with the results but.... having followed this thread and hearing so many good things about the Duelands, curiosity "forced" me to purchase their CAST caps.

All values being equal, I can't imagine there's a whole lot of sonic difference between the Mundorf copper foil inductor and the Goertz? I've been using Goertz for many years and never felt they were lacking. The Dueland CAST on the other hand, with its "proprietary" damping process, looks to be a different animal? At their price, anybody taken the plunge?

One last thing, while the comparisons may have been discussed earlier in this thread, who's got time to go back and read all the responses? I'd really appreciate any info/opinions from experienced users.

Regards!
reynolds853
386 posts
 
Ait and Irish,

Thank you for your suggestions regarding the potting compound idea, and I apologize for not acknowledging your suggestions before now. I didn't immediately comprehend your suggestion, but I got it now. For this project I am not going to use the stock inductors, but constructing my own improvised CAST-like inductor with whatever new inductors I get is an intriguing idea. I may not pursue it, but I'd like to understand your idea a bit more. Since we're talking about loosely wound wires, here's my loosely wound notes and questions!:

- Is the potting compound you have in mind 3M DP270?

- I wanted to confirm, by ABS, do you mean acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, and where does one find such containers?

- I noted on the North Creek website that their inductors are varnish sealed in a vacuum chamber so that the varnish penetrates into the inner coils.

- In a previous post on this thread regarding his CAST components, Frederick mentioned, “The CAST is special in the sense that we can harden it after the vacuum impregnation.” If Duelund's CAST material is similar to the DP270, then I could well imagine it being a more robust compound than varnish penetrating into the inner coils, but I believe I understand why you were thinking of the potting compound as an additional step taking the inductor in the direction of the CAST system.

- I am intrigued with the idea of doing this with a North Creek inductor. Once I get my inductors measured and the dimensions of the equivalent 10awg and 12awg inductors, I'll calculate the volume of potting compound required. Perhaps an ABS tube down the center of the inductor would be okay to take up some volume, thus reducing the amount of potting compound required to cover the inductor?

- If I go with Mundorf coils it doesn't look like there's any chance of the potting compound penetrating to the inner coils, but the North Creek website mentions possible oxidation issues with foil inductors so the potting compound would certainly eliminate that issue.

This is a really neat suggestion, and as always I thank you for your time and help.

John
ait
480 posts
 
There are a lot of manufacturers, I've used MG Chemicals and GC Electronics epoxies in the past. I'd go with a clear epoxy to avoid any possible ill effects from the filling pigments. I don't see an issue with putting a tube in the center to reduce the volume.

Yes, ABS plastic. Do a search on the net, there are many suppliers of ABS containers, in an almost infinite array of shapes and sizes, with and without lids. You need to figure out the size you need based on the components you want to pot.

If you have a source of vacuum like a vacuum pump and a vacuum container or oven you could pot the item and then draw down a vacuum to assist with the penetration and air bubble removal. Gentle heating can also help with air bubble removal, although it shortens the available working time (pot life). There are even automated industrial vacuum potting systems that maintain the resins and target objects under vacuum during the entire process, but that's only useful if you have access to something like that.

You may want to practice on one of your smaller reject coils first - you wouldn't want to mess up a nice Northcreek.
irish65
170 posts
 
John,

The potting compound I was referring to was the 3M DP270. So yes you mentioned the product that I have used. As I am sure you saw it is a relatively small tube so it will take a few to do the job.

I am sure Ait will be able to provide you a contact for the ABS but TDL Plastics has what you are looking for.

I have potted inductors and it does benefit the North Creek inductors as they do have some noise.

You may benefit more from some of the DIY sites as they have more info for what you are doing.

I will add, and this is not intended to offend, that when a project of this undertaking is in it's conceptual phase it is a mistake to say what brand of caps, resistor, and inductors you will use. Having a few caps by different manufacturer's, of the same value to evaluate, would be better than going in blind saying I am using this brand of cap.
Yes you solder it in and it may sound better but it only sounds better than the cheap cap that was already in there.

I understand you have a budget. However, it would be wise to do the xover in stages so you can get the best bang for your buck. If you want to try the the Clarity MR cap then compare it to a Mundorf Silver/oil. Keep the winner and sell the loser. This way your comparing caps that are more equal with each other than the extremes of going from a cheap cap to a very good cap. I also mention this because you stated your concern about the Clarity MR having a "slight focus on the lower treble". How do you know if you can live with this possibility long term? And if not how much will you have to spend later to try and fix it with cables or an amp?

In the end you want your system to cause you to go out and buy more music.
irish65
170 posts
 
Rfogel8,

The Mundorf Silver/Oil caps and Goertz 12AWG copper foil inductors are a very good combination. Unfortunately for you to take a step forward in sonics you will have to spend more.

The Cast Duelund cap you purchased will do it. You will know what the buzz is all about when you hear them.

I have built my own speakers, having access to a manufacturing facility, and have tried more caps and inductors than I care to mention. In the end I chose the Duelund Cast Silver for my Xover. I also use a Scan Speak for the mids.

If you have an inductor in series with the tweeter than I cannot recommend the Cast inductor enough. They are dead quiet, you will hear more ambient info, and they sound so natural.

Yes they are pricey.
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