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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne
mikelavigne OP
2,199 posts
 
Chris (and all you Berning-believers), my reason for starting this thread was to explain that while the Berning is a bang-for-the buck leader.....it is not in the realm of the Tenor. the differences my original post described are the things that separate the "good" from the exceptional.....and there is no "free ride" to exceptional. i don't know how many "exceptional" amps there are (i haven't heard everything), but none i've heard are "as" exceptional as the Tenor on an appropriate speaker.

the law of diminishing returns is in full force at this level, but if you want the best.....you gotta pay. when i listen to the Berning (or many other "good to very good amps") i am listening to excellent hi-fi.....i think about the bass or treble or soundstage. when i listen to the Tenor on my system.....it is close to real.....i think about what the artist is saying or feeling.....the music is served and not the pieces. the comments from fellow listeners focus on the musical event....and how close we are to it.....i have never heard those types of comments listening to my system in the past or any other system.

at the heart of any system that aspires to this level of musical connection will be an exceptional amplifier and speaker combination.

i hope i am not starting round #5 (or is it #6 or #7) but i guess i am entitled to comment as i started this ........

anyway, thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments.....it has been fun and stimulating to read.

oneprof
147 posts
 
I think that we all need to keep in mind Mikelavigne's comment at the end of the first paragraph in his 4-18 posting--"on an appropriate speaker". We've all been around enough to realize how important system synergy is, and while there was some discussion at the beginning of this thread about whether the results of the shoot-out would be the same with, say, electrostatics, these little qualifying statements like "on an appropriate speaker" seem to get lost in translation. We end up talking and thinking in absolutes, as if the Tenor is 'better', PERIOD, at all times and in all contexts. Yes, we all put the qualifying statements in, but then proceed to ignore them. Not a criticism of audiophiles--just human nature.
allanbhaganinfo
121 posts
 
mikelavigne, again you're so right, let's face it, at $4500.00, there has to be some compromises in the Zh-270 compared to the Tenor 75wi, I would have to concede that with the right speaker the ZH-270 cannot be in the same league as the 75wi.
Yes, NOS tubes will make the Berning better, yes, the ZH-270 used in the comparison was 6 years old and not the latest but even with any changes, I think the Tenors with a pair of $80,000.00 speakers will certainly always be the ultimate.
Bernings guys have to understand that it's the total match and system, not only the amps that are in question, Tenors, like their customers, are in a different league.
The ZH-270 was not design for that league, it was designed as a amp that will work in most systems, had the shootout been in DEL's home using his speakers, the out come may have been a lot different.
So Berning guys please understand, the ZH-270 is leagues ahead with anything else in it's class but the 75wi with the right speaker is in another class, and that's all the Tenor guys have been saying all along but some of you Berning lovers have not been listening to the whole sentence.
Who in their right mind would buy a ZH-270 and use Kharma Exquisite 1Ds, albeit might be a super great value but when in this class value is only a concern after the match, I am sure to persons in this class, the Tenor is good value.

The ZH-270 is not quite in this realm, what the ZH-270 does is sound remarkable with almost any speaker at a unbelievable price but when compared to a 75wi with Exquisite 1D, remarkable against this combo, falls a little short, an that's all the Tenor guys are saying.
The Tenor guys know that they are out gunned running your, Spendors, Sound labs, Acoustats, Wilson's an such but the Tenor guys don't care, this is not their class of speakers.

Let's face it guys, there's not one Berning owner with the keys to the executive washroom, it might bother you guys but that's life :)
hififarm
92 posts
 
I am a tenor dealer and think the amps are a good 19,000 amp but if you want the amps that stand alone at the top you need to audition the Audio Tekne tube amps.You also need to be prepared to spend heavy to aquire the best.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Hi Hififarm

How heavy and where are these amps on your site? All I could find was a pre-amp at a modest 16K. I'm sure the heavy hitters and the rest of us are curious. It seems you have taken the lead in the search with such a statement.

I thought this started out as a friendly comparison between an over achieving 4.5k amp and the Tenors. Maybe a "best amp in the whole wide world" thread should be started before it gets too far off track and the ss guys DO show up!
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