2. amps-preamps
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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne
oneprof
147 posts
 
Jtinn, I just have one question. Are you claiming that Tenors, Atma-spheres, Joules (I know, that wasn't in your post), Lamms, etc. will outperform the Berning in every system, with EVERY type of speaker, regardless of how difficult it is to drive--planar, electrostatic, plasma, whatever? Pick the highest quality interconnects, sources, preamps, speaker cables, tweaks, whatever you want, (maybe Mikelavigne's system !), pick the 'best' speakers from the different categories, AB the Tenors and the Berning. The Tenors will always sound better?
I have a Berning; I like it, but I have no emotional investment in it. If your answer to my question is 'yes', I'll think seriously about selling my Berning, some other stuff I have laying around I never use, and saving some money to pick up a pair of Atma-spheres, or Joules. If I win the lottery, maybe Tenors or Lamms!
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 

I hope the Tenors and all the rest of these products are at the show in NYC in May, I look forward to hearing first hand.
mikelavigne OP
2,200 posts
 
Oneproof, when i first demoed the Tenors i did it on the Wilson watt/puppy 6s. the WP6 is among the most brutal speakers for an OTL; difficult impedence curve (6 ohm -- 2.3 ohm), and best normally with monster amps. in fact, my long-time reference had been the Levinson #33....i had also demoed the Halcro DM58 and the Atmasphere MA2 MkII.2 on the WP6. all those "big" amps were great on the WP6. but even with the dynamic limitations of the Tenor on the WP6, the Tenors were so much better than any other amp i was stunned.

if i still owned WP6s i would still own the Tenor 75Wi.

your answer is YES!!! the Tenors are THAT good. there are probably some brutal speakers somewhere that the Berning might be better on but i doubt it. the musical connection of the Tenors come thru......even though it is a shame not to optimize the Tenors.....even with a handicap they are something really special.

understand i am not saying that the Tenors are better than every amp on every speaker.....but it will require a great amp (read big $$$$) in a "native" situation for that amp to better the Tenor.

get yourself somewhere that you can hear the Tenors compared to another amp you know....it will literally jump out at you what they do.
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
I have heard the tenors and must say they are the ONLY amps I have heard that really take my breath away(for the record I am a lazy tube guy so I use BAT-which I enjoy), they get my goot tapping, they make me smile-they sound like music. Everything else I have heard sounds like hi-fi. Not that it should matter but the tenors are aesthetically pleasing as well(good WAF......well for a tube amp any way) and the Berning is kinda ugly; but as I said that is not a big thing-hell the new audio aero I think is ugly but I bought one any way.
fiddler
581 posts
 
NOS, NOS, NOS tubes!

I haven't had the luxury of hearing either amp, but after reading this thread I would strongly consider a Berning. I had been considering the Atma-sphere M-60's, but the thought of the Berning with considerably fewer tubes, very little heat and with phenomenal sound is very intriguing.

One thing I am surprised at in this thread is the few mentions of NOS tubes for the Berning. From my own personal experience, NOS tubes can make a tremendous difference. The Berning apparently had stock tubes and it wasn't embarrassed in this shoot-out. Amazing considering the price difference. But I would love to see you guys re-create the shoot-out with NOS tubes in the Berning. I think I recall reading in one of the earlier posts that the Tenors had stock tubes also, but for the sake of argument, I wonder how things would differ if the Berning had NOS and the Tenors didn't. I know it is not necessarily fair to restrict the Tenors, but lets face it, this comparison wasn't fair to begin with if you look at the price difference. I agree with an earlier poster that it is simply unbelievable that the Berning was even in the ballpark.

It would also be interesting to leave the Berning on overnight in the system and then continue the shoot-out. My tube gear definitely sounds better after being on for a few hours.
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