Riddle me this...

Sean- for that matter, can we have efficient FULL-RANGE speakers w/out lots of compromise? Compromise that we pay for elsewhere (i.e. amplification, active subs)? I think that the "speaker + sub" scenario typifies it: we need two separate speaker transducers to even APPROACH full-range reproduction. Or, we have to turn to giga$ speakers, some of which incorporate the "sub" part... which of course requires bi-amping at least. I.e. it's not only the watts in one main amp its also often necessary to have TWO amps, even if the one of the two amps comes with the speaker set (but we pay for it, don't we?).
Three of us experimented with a pair of Avanti -- trying to get "the last ounce" of sound out of it. The best result we could achieve required $20k of amplification + another 7k of branded speaker cable. Spare change.

And, what about the upper register -- the harmonics going beyond that 20kHz standard? How much of that can we normally reproduce through our speakers? Despite the wide-band electronics that are available & hi-rez sources, and s/ware that is supposedly available? Little, I bet...

It seems that the kind of reproduction we are driving for here is an excercise in inefficiency -- in a grand scale.

I'd like to put my 2 cents in regarding these last few posts, that have alot of merit in them.

Nothing is perfect, and we will compromise in whatever we get.Like Sean says, it takes surface area and power to move alot of air for high-SPL deep bass response. Like Gregm says, it takes speed and maybe even some unknown things to cover supersonic frequencies, which may affect the listening experience in yet unkown ways. Like Zaikesman says, there is becoming less difference between high power amps and low power, in terms of accuracy, and sound quality.

So again, it comes back to what each individual wants in their system. A person that uses single-drivers and low power amps, like myself, would be foolish to think that he's going to get 125db at 20Hz out of his system. It is not going to happen. Conversely, there are different sacrifices made when someone selects a system that will produce that kind of SPL/freq. As Gregm points out most full range systems require multiple drivers, maybe multiple amps, alot of gain stages, low efficiency drivers, volumetric efficiency sacrifices in the enclosures, possibly equalization, crossover distortions, longer signal path, etc. If these trade-offs are considered to be acceptible for the SPL and frequency extension desired, then that is a fine choice.

But, there is no free ride. You will make sacrifices that accompany your decisions. There are many who think that they can get the sound quality of a good low powered SET, from their Godzilla amplifiers, and this is simply not the case. There are some who think that they can get the SPL and frequency extension of a high-powered SS system from their SET's, and this is simply not the case, either. It is a "pick your poison" situation.

Of course, there are certain applications where there is no choice, such as sound reinforcement for theaters, or stadiums, or hard rockers who must play music at 120db. For all others there is a choice, as far as home reproduction is concerned. The choices made will ultimately define the capabilities of that system.

Unfortunately, the "hyping" of certain products by manufacturers, magazines, or owners, in an attempt to make others believe that there is no sacrifice to be made in owning that product, leads to less-savvy purchasers being mis-led into thinking that they can have it all. Nobody has it all.

Maxgain, I am glad you also joined the discussion.

I, for one, do not let the word "accurate" go so easily.

Why is it that the word accurate always is used to describe sound which is opposite of musical, romantic, lush, or warm? Why is the word "accurate" used instead of threadbare, white, emaciated, etched, sterile, or analytical?

My point is that I would love to see a more accurate use of the word accurate. People who do not favor a more classic tube sound do not have any more right to the use of the word accurate than does the other camp.

I am sorry, but I do not find the sound of the past few years' worth of Audio Research tube amps(I have heard the new design may be a departure from this - trying to win back the tube amp crowd - haven't listened/not sure) to be accurate. I find them all of the things on the other side of the spectrum from that which you deride as not being "accurate". Which doesn't make it any more accurate, just different. In my opinion, in fact, this sound is LESS accurate. To you, this sound is MORE accurate.

We disagree. No problem.

I submit to you, that the goal of an audio component is to make music. Not that I mind a nice set of measurements. But, I think making a voice, saxophone, or drum sound real is closer to MY definition of "accurate" than a component which seems to be a straight wire with gain on someone's test measurement but somehow alters what I know a voice, saxophone, or drum to sound like.

For every one thing someone says is not accurate about a tube amp, there is also at least one thing that is not accurate about a solid state amp.

Trelja, I will try to be more "accurate" in my descriptions, but language is a plyable sort of thing sometimes. It looks to me that we agree much more than we disagree. For one thing we are both in the tube camp. I want amps to have the least sound of their own that is possible,I guess that is what I mean when I say "accurate". As an exapmle, I have worked for ARC dealerships and Conrad dealerships and have owned both. Both are wonderful but different. I just seem to lean tword the ARC house sound if you will. For me the sound of the VT series amp that I own is just about ideal. One the other hand one of the best and what I would consider reference quality systems for the era I have had the pleasure of spending alot of time with used a Premier One and a Three. I used a Premier Three and Four in my own system for some time.Funny thing is for me that my system does more of what that Conrad reference system did right than ever before.(I will state a preference for Vandersteens as well over anything else I have heard)
I have been working for the past year to get rid of some of what to me were colorations(for lack of a better or more accurate phrase) in my system that I felt were perhaps "romantic". We may have a different idea of what that sound is? I have gotten closer to "my" ideal sound than ever before by working these out of the sound. It is more realistic to me. which is my only benchmark as to if my system sounds good. If it can fool me for even a bit into thinking I am there with the live event keeps me listening.

I have been a tube guy since my brother came home from UofM with a Dynaco ST70 and an ARC SP3a1, while I was still in High School in about 75,listening to my Marantz 1060. I toyed with the idea of getting an ARC tatoo,just like the sweaty Harley guys, to give you a look into where I am coming from.

One thing I guess I should say that while I have an appreciation for low power SET amps, and the speakers which are needed to be partnered with them, that is really not my point in this thread.

I think I have gone out of my way to trumpet tubes in general, not specifically 3W amplifiers. The MC240 and MC275 amps which I have asked for are not low powered. The two amps I own, a Jadis and a pair of Atma Sphere monoblocks, are not low powered. My speakers are not very efficient, but are in no means inefficient. The products I own are sort of the "middle way" as a Buddhist would call them. Not SET, but not 200W either. Not 105 db/2.83V, but not 84 db/2.83V either. I see merit in both philosophies, and believe that both add to the harmony which is the high.
My likes and dislikes I make known, and feel strongly about.

What I have been trying to say is that I prefer tubes to solid state, or some newer tube amplifiers which do not sound very tubelike.

The original question of this thread is "where are the lower power" solid state amps. Amps, I point out that I am supportive of, and have heard those which I would not be unhappy to own. I stated earlier, that these seem to be most apparent from the European manufacturers these days.

Somehow, we have digressed into a comparison where Henry Rosenberg is on the one side, and Dan D'Agostino is on the other. I honor the work and contribution of both men. The discussion is fine, and makes for healthy and interesting pro and conversation. Which this thread has served up in spades.