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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
Audiolabyrinth,
I wouldn't extrapolate to the extent that you have done.The main point is with many speakers the Xover is a soft spot and is ripe for considerable improvement. The speaker should be very good and appeal to your ears in its stock form.I wouldn't suggest that you can take any old speaker and transform the sound merely by upgrading the capacitors. Other important aspects of the speaker must be of quality also.
Charles,
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,479 posts
 
Charles is right. We are saying the designs are very good. In many cases the drivers and cab are also high quality. But often times they use low cost resistors, caps, and inductors thinking they don't make much of a difference or whatever the reason. I say don't skimp on crossover parts when selling a $12,000 plus speaker! Go ahead and use a $10 resistor instead of a $ .50 cent one. Go ahead and use a $200 cap instead of a $5 one.....
jwm
918 posts
 
Absolutely Charles and Grannyring a speaker should sound great with the parts the manufacture supplies. I doubt very much that you would find any component that you thought was just ok transform into something fabulous with just better part changes.
marqmike
839 posts
 
Hey Grannyring
I have some vienna accoustic mozart grands which I believe you have also. One thing I think they are noted for is a little richer presentation. Could you tell me with your experience replacing xover caps and resistors in other speakers, and your familiarity with the mozarts, do you think this is easily an upgrade replacing the caps and resistors or a little risky because of the house sound of the mozarts? Thanks a lot for your input.
volleyguy1's avatar
volleyguy1
343 posts
 
I am very glad this very long thread has worked out so well for so many of us...

The actual cause of the start of this thread was when I installed a full new crossover into my speakers on one side with Sonicaps vs. the vintage foil caps. Like most people I think I wanted to believe that my work (time) and money was making things better. The new caps with all this progress (of 30 years) were much smaller. I had my wife come down almost grudgingly to listen. I wanted a blind test listener. She listened blind to the 30 year old crossover and the brand new one. She went WOW that one is clearly way better! She said that one just sounds sooooo much better and real you must be really happy?

The problem was and I did not tell her (she was really impressed) she was picking the vintage foil in oil caps!!! That caused the start of this thread as I went this is not just bolt in new parts sound better. The thread started as just a sharing of thoughts.

I was under the impression all new caps better than all old ones? So I said I have to go up the quality scale and get some Mundorf Supreme's (which were better) and Duelund was the same style as the vintage but much better!

Oddly enough for someone reading this thread VSF was not chosen as a snooty exotic cap it was the only one that was better in all ways to the vintage caps. In fact the VSF might fit the bill of being 10-30% better in the midrange (not super huge) the tweeter caps were a 100% better!

I was impressed and shocked (by all of this) and started to read all of Steen Duelund's writing that I could and that I could understand.

Then I tried the CAST tweeter caps putting one speaker against another a VSF vs. CAST comparison. I was ready to really put my ears on to see if I could hear a difference. I literally thought I wired something up wrong going to the CAST tweeter speaker putting my ear to it to see if it was still working! To my shock there was just sooooo much less noise. People had told me (including Frederick) that of course the difference was not going to be like vintage to VSF but it was at least as big to my shock!

Now let us all be speaker manufactures for awhile. The common number I hear is $12k in the speakers allows for $2k in manufacturing costs? We are a very small market caring about sound quality rather than appearance. Steen talked about this in some of his papers on why there had been so little progress on sound quality yet stunning finishes on new speakers but this is for the eyes not the ears.

Thanks for all the nice comments about this thread but we really all owe a lot to Steen (now Frederik) for making these improvements and it goes to show the money must be in sexy speakers...

Now for the second blind test.

I took the amp in knowing not guessing something was wrong with the sound but not knowing what is was? In seeing the leaking CAST I went wow it had not been leaking that long either.

The amp builder (who is an absolute great guy!) said "that is why I do not like these exotic caps". He meant it like it was all a farce, waste of money or maybe that he has not had failures in his machine made caps? I have talked about having him over to hear the speakers but am worried...

I already know it sounds better than any amp I have heard in his store for repair and he has had some good ones!

His comment guys are exactly why we do not have high end parts in many speakers or amps. He has a vested financial interest in NOT thinking expensive caps sound better... (or heaven forbid if they were not as reliable)

To me I can deal with wiring in another cap I have only had one go bad but I can not handle crappy sound from a cap that lasts forever...
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