Ok this will be a good thread.

Inpep, my answer to that is, that I can hear the differences between the CDPs, even on mediocre speakers. If I can't hear a difference, then I doubt there is much if any difference between them, and one would not represent an upgrade over the other. I realize that it is harder to tell the differences between similarly priced CDPs, because there really is not much difference between them, and the digital source material is so limited, that the primary differences will be fairly expensive to get, such as a quality analog output from the DAC and low-jitter mechanisms. This is why the Linn CD12 and others are so much more expensive.

However the main problem with digital sources is, that even if they get the sound off the disc and into the system, it is far lower quality than a similarly priced analog source. A large percentage of the musical information never got onto the disc in the first place, due to the sampling technology that is used in all digital recordings. A "sample" means that the whole wave is not used, only little sections chopped out on a regular timing structure. If you think that this can give equal performance to replaying the entire wave, then I can't help you with that.

The main challenge of analog systems is recovering the massive amount of information off of the record, and this is why improving your TT can improve the sound so much. No TT has ever been able to totally extract all the info from the groove, but at least the TT gets a continuous waveform to work with. The better it does at recovery, the better the sound is. The real source is the recording and a continuous wave recording with all its warts, is still a better source than a sampled wave recording.

With digital systems the challenge is to make something decent sounding out of a sampled and chopped up waveform that left a good portion of its information on the recording studio floor. Even if it recovers 100% of what it can get from the disc, it is not enough. A five minute comparison of a $6k TT vs a $6k CDP will tell you more about this fact than I could explain in a term paper.

The speakers are an important part of the system, just as all parts are important. I don't take this lightly. But I have done comparisons, and understand the factors involved, and even a modest speaker that you might call "unresolving" will still tell the tale. It might not give the 20Hz lows or even the 20kHz highs, but the musical presentation will be audible, and will reveal the better source.

I have never heard any speaker in any decent audio store that had any speaker that was so bad that it wouldn't show the quality of what was in front of it. And if there is such a speaker, why would anybody who owned it care at all about anything else in their system?

I get the feeling that you are being argumentative for argument's sake. Yes, I agree if you unplug the speaker, no sound will come out. If you have a speaker that makes any decent kind of sound, the front end will be easily discernable.

You guys amaze me, some thing as obvious as the necessity for a superior source first gets lost on you!That is like saying the film you use in your camera is more important than the quality of the lens for christ sake.I don't know what to say Twl, I'm at a loss to explain man.

Bruce, I'm still trying to give everyone a fair shake. Sometimes, I just can't get anywhere. At some point, I'll just give up. But, I'm still trying at this point.

I'm not saying people should have crappy speakers. I think they should have great speakers. But to realize the potential of those great speakers, you need a great source. I don't think that is such an outlandish idea.

For all those people who think you start with a superior source.... I have one question.

How do you know you have a great source if you are running it through a jambox?

Crappy electronics will screw with the sources signal to such a degree that you have no real way of knowing what that source sounds like. Add crappy speakers on top of that, and it just emphasizes how bad the electronis are even more.

One may argue.... well you DEMO sources at an audio store first on good systems to hear what they sound like. This could be ideal... and this may even be a so-so route to go. BUT WHAT ARE YOU TO DO IF THEIR ARE NO GOOD AUDIO STORES IN YOUR AREA? And you are making the purchase online. How do you know if you have a good source when you get it or if it is crap (if all you have is a rack system to run it through)?

I will be the first to admit that the source's signal is ultimately what you want to hear from a musical system. But to be able to hear how good your source is, is going to take good speakers matched well to a good amp matched well to a good preamp matched to a good source.

Does anyone see how much trouble one can get into starting with the source of a system and moving component by component downstream from the source?

You start with source X. You think it is a good source.... But you really have no clue because you have been running it through your rack system which you are trying to replace.

You buy preamp Y to hook into your preamp ins because you read somewhere that this preamp was the best value for the $$$ and you got a great deal on it. Unfortunately this preamp does not have as much gain as your preamp in your rack system because you cannot get the kind of volume you want. You also bought preamp Y because your source has a high output and preamp Y is passive. The sound of your system improves a little, but do to lack of volume it is difficult to tell how it sounds.

You buy amp Z because you have read that it is an ideal match for preamp Y. It is very sensitive and very powerful and able to drive almost any home speaker in the world. You hook amp Z up to your rack speakers and all of a sudden your system sound is totally transformed. Yeah it is a lot cleaner... but you hear ever freakin fault that your speakers have. They appear to resonate (in the bass) when you play certain music and their trebble is giving your ear fits...

Now you have heard that you really must hear speakers first before you buy them.... So you make a trip to the Big City to visit all of the audio stores in town to select speakers. You walk into an audio store which carries many of the brands you are interested in (because you have done your homework and read every Stereophile and TAS issue for the last 10 years). The first pair of speaker you listen to totally 100% blow your mind. They are of the horn variety and are about 106db efficient. You want them and the sales guy asks what are your electronics? Being very helpful, the Salesman indicates your system would have problems with these hors speakers. He says that you have way too much gain and your amp was just way too sensative. Darn! Ok, so you listen to another spair of speakers this time planer speakers.... and whoa! These speakers sound really freakin good and only 84db or so sensative. However the salesman points out that although your amp is seemingly very powerful, you just would not have enough gain for these speakers with the preamp and the size of room you have you have. This is very bad because you like to listen to music lound... This day of speaker shopping is not going as you had planned. Next you listen to a box speaker, and you are impressed by the sound. Actually it sounds freakin amazing. And after to listening to several more speakers, you come back to these... One thing you forget to ask is what sort of electronics are driving them. It is tubes, but you have no idea about the manufacturer of the electroncs.

You get the speakers home... Hook them up to your system eagerly... AND the speakers do not sound 1/10th as good as they sounded in the store you went to. HOWEVER, your system does sound a lot better than your rack system and it took you about 2 YEARS FROM GETTING YOUR GREAT SOUNCE TO GET TO THIS POINT.

Basically, you are stuck speakers that you thought were pretty good at the store (with other speakers at the store sounding better to you). You have an amp that really does not match the speakers you got well. The amp can theoretically drive the speakers, but the speakers would be better suited for a little more refined amp than you have. YOu have a preamp that kinda matches your amp. And you have a source which you think is good.

Lets run this scenario the RIGHT way.

You want to upgrade your rack system and you have been told to start with speakers. You plan a big trip into the city to buy speakers. The speakers you really love are horns. You buy the horns and get them home. You hook them up, and they sound so-so (maybe even not-so-good). You have gain issues, but at least you can listen to music (although only at loud volumes). BUT YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET THESE HORN SPEAKERS TO SOUND AMAZING BECAUSE YOU HAVE HEARD THEM SOUND AMAZING BEFORE.

Several months later you take the plunge and buy 8wpc SET monoblocks. All of a sudded sound quality goes up 100 fold in your system. Your gain problem is resolved due to the low sensativity of the SET amps. all I can say is you are in HEAVEN with the sound. It still is not as good as the audio store sound, but it has been so long since you have listened to that sound, you really could not care less.

Six month later you buy a nice tube preamp that has been noted with going well with the 8wpc SET amps you have. Placing the preamp in your system, you CANNOT believe the differences preamplification makes in a system. Your mind is boggled, and the sound you are getting seems heavenly. All gain problems are gone, and you are in a high state of audio happiness.

Many months pass, and digital technology has progressed A LOT. Great digitital sound can be had for less than $3k, and you are ready to finally get a great source. You spend $3k on a CD player that has gotten all the rave reviews (and has an output that would go with your other components). YOu get the CDP and you are utterly blown away. It IS the final piece of the puzzle in your quest for sonic Nirvana!

Right up until a good friend of yours brings over some aftermarket ICs, PCs, and SCs............

Anyway, I will be the first to admit that it takes a great source to make a great system; however, if you want to enjoy your system as you are building it (the most), and if you want a well matched system after you have built it, ONE MUST SELECT THE SPEAKER THEY WANT FIRST.

And this is why SPEAKERS are more important than sources.

Nuff said.

KF

I give up now.