Ok this will be a good thread.

Bruce, I'm still trying to give everyone a fair shake. Sometimes, I just can't get anywhere. At some point, I'll just give up. But, I'm still trying at this point.

I'm not saying people should have crappy speakers. I think they should have great speakers. But to realize the potential of those great speakers, you need a great source. I don't think that is such an outlandish idea.

For all those people who think you start with a superior source.... I have one question.

How do you know you have a great source if you are running it through a jambox?

Crappy electronics will screw with the sources signal to such a degree that you have no real way of knowing what that source sounds like. Add crappy speakers on top of that, and it just emphasizes how bad the electronis are even more.

One may argue.... well you DEMO sources at an audio store first on good systems to hear what they sound like. This could be ideal... and this may even be a so-so route to go. BUT WHAT ARE YOU TO DO IF THEIR ARE NO GOOD AUDIO STORES IN YOUR AREA? And you are making the purchase online. How do you know if you have a good source when you get it or if it is crap (if all you have is a rack system to run it through)?

I will be the first to admit that the source's signal is ultimately what you want to hear from a musical system. But to be able to hear how good your source is, is going to take good speakers matched well to a good amp matched well to a good preamp matched to a good source.

Does anyone see how much trouble one can get into starting with the source of a system and moving component by component downstream from the source?

You start with source X. You think it is a good source.... But you really have no clue because you have been running it through your rack system which you are trying to replace.

You buy preamp Y to hook into your preamp ins because you read somewhere that this preamp was the best value for the $$$ and you got a great deal on it. Unfortunately this preamp does not have as much gain as your preamp in your rack system because you cannot get the kind of volume you want. You also bought preamp Y because your source has a high output and preamp Y is passive. The sound of your system improves a little, but do to lack of volume it is difficult to tell how it sounds.

You buy amp Z because you have read that it is an ideal match for preamp Y. It is very sensitive and very powerful and able to drive almost any home speaker in the world. You hook amp Z up to your rack speakers and all of a sudden your system sound is totally transformed. Yeah it is a lot cleaner... but you hear ever freakin fault that your speakers have. They appear to resonate (in the bass) when you play certain music and their trebble is giving your ear fits...

Now you have heard that you really must hear speakers first before you buy them.... So you make a trip to the Big City to visit all of the audio stores in town to select speakers. You walk into an audio store which carries many of the brands you are interested in (because you have done your homework and read every Stereophile and TAS issue for the last 10 years). The first pair of speaker you listen to totally 100% blow your mind. They are of the horn variety and are about 106db efficient. You want them and the sales guy asks what are your electronics? Being very helpful, the Salesman indicates your system would have problems with these hors speakers. He says that you have way too much gain and your amp was just way too sensative. Darn! Ok, so you listen to another spair of speakers this time planer speakers.... and whoa! These speakers sound really freakin good and only 84db or so sensative. However the salesman points out that although your amp is seemingly very powerful, you just would not have enough gain for these speakers with the preamp and the size of room you have you have. This is very bad because you like to listen to music lound... This day of speaker shopping is not going as you had planned. Next you listen to a box speaker, and you are impressed by the sound. Actually it sounds freakin amazing. And after to listening to several more speakers, you come back to these... One thing you forget to ask is what sort of electronics are driving them. It is tubes, but you have no idea about the manufacturer of the electroncs.

You get the speakers home... Hook them up to your system eagerly... AND the speakers do not sound 1/10th as good as they sounded in the store you went to. HOWEVER, your system does sound a lot better than your rack system and it took you about 2 YEARS FROM GETTING YOUR GREAT SOUNCE TO GET TO THIS POINT.

Basically, you are stuck speakers that you thought were pretty good at the store (with other speakers at the store sounding better to you). You have an amp that really does not match the speakers you got well. The amp can theoretically drive the speakers, but the speakers would be better suited for a little more refined amp than you have. YOu have a preamp that kinda matches your amp. And you have a source which you think is good.

Lets run this scenario the RIGHT way.

You want to upgrade your rack system and you have been told to start with speakers. You plan a big trip into the city to buy speakers. The speakers you really love are horns. You buy the horns and get them home. You hook them up, and they sound so-so (maybe even not-so-good). You have gain issues, but at least you can listen to music (although only at loud volumes). BUT YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET THESE HORN SPEAKERS TO SOUND AMAZING BECAUSE YOU HAVE HEARD THEM SOUND AMAZING BEFORE.

Several months later you take the plunge and buy 8wpc SET monoblocks. All of a sudded sound quality goes up 100 fold in your system. Your gain problem is resolved due to the low sensativity of the SET amps. all I can say is you are in HEAVEN with the sound. It still is not as good as the audio store sound, but it has been so long since you have listened to that sound, you really could not care less.

Six month later you buy a nice tube preamp that has been noted with going well with the 8wpc SET amps you have. Placing the preamp in your system, you CANNOT believe the differences preamplification makes in a system. Your mind is boggled, and the sound you are getting seems heavenly. All gain problems are gone, and you are in a high state of audio happiness.

Many months pass, and digital technology has progressed A LOT. Great digitital sound can be had for less than $3k, and you are ready to finally get a great source. You spend $3k on a CD player that has gotten all the rave reviews (and has an output that would go with your other components). YOu get the CDP and you are utterly blown away. It IS the final piece of the puzzle in your quest for sonic Nirvana!

Right up until a good friend of yours brings over some aftermarket ICs, PCs, and SCs............

Anyway, I will be the first to admit that it takes a great source to make a great system; however, if you want to enjoy your system as you are building it (the most), and if you want a well matched system after you have built it, ONE MUST SELECT THE SPEAKER THEY WANT FIRST.

And this is why SPEAKERS are more important than sources.

Nuff said.

KF

I give up now.

Tok20000, I get what you're saying...but still say the source is the foundation of a great system, and without one you may have a great-sounding system, but it will fall way short of a system where one, or more of the other components are compromised. Your scenario only goes to reinforce that in my mind. It shows how all of the downstream components are far more interdependent upon one and other to sound their best, whereas the great source will remain a constant, and relys only upon the material (CD's/LP's etc.) you play on it (as well as your two good ears and the room, room treatments, electricity, achohol consumption, ambient temperature, and the phase of the moon, for all those who insist on pointing out details beyond the original question). The great source will remain a great source no matter what downstream components you put with it, and you can tailor the sound specifically to your tastes by altering those downstream components, especially, and yes then I would indeed START with the speakers. A great speaker will not necessarily remain sounding like a great speaker, and is very dependent upon the upstream components you match it with. I agree, it makes little sense to spend your budget way out of balance and buy a great megabuck source, only to play it through Fisher Price components. Balance and synergy are key here, as I'm sure you'd agree! If I take your scenario, and throw it out of balance the other way, and spend megabucks on some fabulous horns, as you suggested, that sound great at the dealer, but like crap on your high-school summer-job system....Well, then you could just as likely spend time and money mismatching and misunderstanding the potential of those horns, and maybe even find out that horns don't necessarily match up with all of your musical tastes, or to your room treatment, etc. You are locked in and your only option is to sell the horns for something else. But spend the same megabucks on a Wadia, or an Audio Aero, (simply examples and not a standard) and you will likely keep that component no matter what you end up with downstream. Yep, digital technology does change rapidly, but, at that level of performance, there is little out there that I'd imagine you wouldn't be happy with in 5-10 years time. Unless you are one of the hopelessly obsessed, in which case you will never be satisfied anyway, so enjoy what you've got if you can! With the best digital approaching, if not equaling analogue at this point (OK, that's a whole other thread which does not bear repeating) where else can you go in two channel? The most higlhly rated and raved about AudioNote DAC, which some hold to be a reference standard, is simply playing Redbook CD's and is outperforming all those oversampling "developments" that have been dominating the current market. Of course one could argue that the AudioNote is a "development" itself! Coincidently, per the Tok20000 example, I do happen to own and enjoy a similar system as you describe: Quicksilver 300B SET mono amps putting out 8wpc driving Klipsch LaScala horns. My source is certainly not state-of-the-art, but it sounds damn good, and when I did a direct comparison to much more expensive (and more contemporary) Wadia and Cary units, the differences were not siginificant, nor impressive enough to warrant the huge price difference (IMHO). I use a Muse Model 5 transport and Model 2+ DAC with a Muse proprietary L2S connection between them...decent units, but old news in todays market. Still they hold their own against current offerenings, and even with analogue I'd say. Now I could use that same Muse source/DAC in virtually any system and be assured that it was moving all the information I wanted it to to the downstream components. Synergy with a source is seldom a problem (though it can happen, I'm sure). If I didn't like the sound I would much more likely look at one or more of the downstream components than I would the source. But take those LaScala's and put them with a megabuck, megawatt SS amp and it may likely be a waste of some good horns and a good amp to no good ends (again, IMHO, and YMMV).

Perhaps what is breaking apart this thread into two predominent camps is that there are two questions being asked here. I'm not sure here, but perhaps more would agree on this scenario:

1. What is the most important part of a good two channel system?

Answer: The Source

2. Or what has the biggest impact on overall sound?

Answer: The speakers.

That is, if "overall sound" is to be taken to mean the way the kind of overall sound the system produces (for example Euphonic vs Analytical).

Does that all make any sense, or am I beating a dead horse at this point?! Giddyup!!!

No Twl my friend, don't give up. You know you are right. Keep walking. Walk till the end and then turn back to tell us. Screw you. ;-)