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ARC vs Atma-Sphere and ARC vs VTL Amplifiers

(Sorry in advance for the long post.)

While I'm particularly interested in the Atma-Sphere MA-1 and the VTL MB-450, I'm interested in learning what sonics users have experienced from the tube amps of all three of these manufacturers. I am most familiar with Audio Research Corp's products so they provide a good reference point for me. I think ARC has made some great amps, so if something is really compettive with their products or better than their products, that would be impressive.

I realize that the models don't all sound the same within a manufacturer's line as designs can change between models and over time. For example, ARC has ebbed and flowed and evolved over the years; their current amps with JFETs seem to elicit somewhat different user comments than their earlier all tube models. And of course the speaker load can make a difference.

Having said all that, I'm very interested in what differences Audiogon users have heard in direct A-B comparisons of ARC vs VTL and ARC vs Atmasphere, and if possible, it would be very helpful to know which amp models and which speakers were heard in the direct A-B, or which amps with what speakers were the basis of the comments if the comments weren't the result of a direct A-B.

While it is valuable to hear a reviewer's qualitative descriptions (more air, more low end extension, etc.) it's also helpful to know how much more or less of these things were heard - just a smigdeon, a noticeable amount, a day and night difference, etc. Generally, I think most Agoners would rather save some $ than just a get a barely discernible upgrade; but if something really takes a system to another level, then sometimes it might be worth spending some $; at that point, it becomes a matter of how many more $, but presumably at least there's a notable difference to be had. (I realize everything can be relative from one user's perspective to another's, but the idea would be to describe both the differences in sound quality and the amount or size of the differences.)

If any Agoners have any comments along these lines regarding ARC vs VTL and ARC vs Atmasphere it would really be most appreciated. It is difficult to find local demos so the ability to get a user's first hand experience "here" (on Audiogon) is the next best thing to "hearing" (the real thing). If nothing else, it helps home-in on the finalists and then maybe it would be worth traveling somehwere to check out finalists first hand.

Thanks very much to all the Agoners who make this such a great forum.
hi_hifi
mikelavigne
2,199 posts
 
Hi hifi....it would be helpful to list your speakers and approximate room size. or maybe at least an idea of some speaker choices. the Atmasphere MA1 has some sonic attributes that i prefer generally to the ARC and VTL.....but is quite affected by speaker and room size choices.

that said, Piezo has it right. in general, the VTL has a somewhat traditional 'tube-like' warmth.....just not too much of it. it is more like a tone control. the ARC is more neutral.....even slightly dry to some tastes.....but big and bloomy sounding but without added warmth.....except maybe in direct comparison with ss. some ARC's seem to have a slight 'veiling' or 'greyness' to them......but i don't always hear that from them. bass performance is a strength of both the VTL and ARC.....the ARC seems to be slightly more neutral thru the mid-bass (which i prefer).

personally, i prefer the clarity and more neutral approach of the Atmasphere......but it needs the right speaker and reasonable sized room to really be comfortable. the ARC and VTL have distinctive signatures.....the Atmasphere is really about getting out of the way of things.

all three of these amps are excellent.
rushton's avatar
rushton
2,445 posts
 
A agree with Mike's comments, point-for-point. I would only add that, with compatible speakers (which are many), the Atma-Sphere MA-1 and MA-2 amps have incredible bass authority and impact.
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hi_hifi OP
120 posts
 
Hi, I appreciate the responses. Ok, here's my target: Sound Lab M-3s or maybe M-2s; the room size is marginal; about 18 long x 12 wide by 10 high. I think I can get each speaker within 1-2 feet of the side walls and about 4-5 feet out from the back wall - which would create an arrangement and allow for a seating position that pretty much conforms to the recommendations on the Cardas web site (which I've found to a useful). I'd prefer the M-2s, but they might be just a bit imposing given the room size; I think the M-3s might feel a little more comfortable in a room this size, but I'm concerned about getting enough low end. So, the low end in amp performance will be particularly important if I go with the M-3s, but overall deluxe sound is important with either the M-3s or the M-2s. I have a hunch that ARC, Atma-Sphere and VTL can all make Sound Labs sound very good. I've heard lots of ARC amps including an ARC amp driving Sound Lab U-1s in a system that was exquisite top to bottom. I'm less much familiar with Atma-Sphere and VTL, but I have a hunch either the MA-1 or the MB-450 would be excellent; so we're just fine tuning I suspect - but hey, that's what this gets to be about. I also have a theory that the Zero Autoformers might have a role to play.

Also, my experience is that ARC's service is somewhere between excellent and perfect (I've been an ARC customer for many years, so it isn't even clear to me I want to switch; I think ARC is a great company that makes great products.); I'd be up for hearing about the service from Atma-Sphere and VTL. My impression is that they must be reasonably good to have been in business a fairly long time themselves so it's primarily a decision based on sonics, but any service input would be good too. (I'm still going to be an ARC customer even if I try the VTL or Atma-Sphere models so this isn't about manufacturer loyalty, it's just a matter of trying to optimize one system.)

Well, I was trying not to get this too specific, but there you have it. Any feedback comparing the amps from these three manufacturers would be appreciated and any feedback from people who have actually heard 2 or 3 of the three on the same speakers would be highly appreciated..
bpwalsh
1,201 posts
 
Hi_hifi, I'll try to offer a little advice and encouragement on your intended system, since I own Sound Lab U-1s and am a Sound Lab dealer located in the Chicago area.

First of all, hats off to you on an excellent choice of speakers! (grains of salt all around) In your room either speaker would work. M-2s are easier to drive than M-3s, and it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s. One person I know has Auras (which use similar size panels as M-3s) supplemented by a subwoofer in a room about the size of yours, although a pair of Sound Lab U-2s (same size panels) in an 11'x12' room about 2 1/2 to 3 feet out from the corners sounded quite good as well as in a slightly larger room. Although the frequency response specifications for both the M-2 and M-3 are similar enough, in-room response is different depending upon natural room reinforcement, which in turn depends upon the room size and acoustics. Another thing to consider is the horizontal radiation pattern, 60 degrees on the M-3 vs. 75 degrees on the M-2. The M-2 may prove to be more tonally rich and full bodied than the M-3, to an extent determined by the room. In your room I think you'd hear it. At the same time it's good to have room for the speakers to breathe, and in smaller rooms the smaller speakers may image better.

As for amplifier choices, I have experience with Atma-Sphere MA-1s driving my U-1s. Especially on the current production speakers which enjoy a significant efficiency improvement, the MA-1s should easily be able to drive either the M-2s or M-3s well. Zero autoformers may be worth considering to raise the effective impedance, especially if you go with M-3s, although one of my customers didn't like the Zeros with his M-2s and MA-1s, finding them veiled. I can't speak about how well ARC amps match up with the current production Sound Labs, but only the REF models, especially the REF600s (one of my customers uses them to drive his U-1s), were capable of driving Sound Labs satisfyingly until recently. The VT200 and VT100 now may be capable of driving them. The bigger VTLs seem to be a good match, as Albert Porter reports that his VTL 750s drive his U-1s quite well, so the 450s may be worth checking out and ought to be tons of power for the newer production Sound Labs.

If you're in or plan to visit the Chicago area sometime and would like to come for a listen, including some of the above amplifier choices and perhaps others, let me know and be my guest. Meanwhile, feel free to pick my brain for what little is there. Always glad to help. Best of luck!

Brian
hi_hifi OP
120 posts
 
Brian, thanks for the reply; it's always good to get both info and encouragement :).

I've read your paragraph below several times, but I'm not sure if I understand it fully.

- Are you saying that the M-3s will or will not have sufficient bass in a 18x12 room?

"First of all, hats off to you on an excellent choice of speakers! (grains of salt all around) In your room either speaker would work. M-2s are easier to drive than M-3s, and it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s. One person I know has Auras (which use similar size panels as M-3s) supplemented by a subwoofer in a room about the size of yours, although a pair of Sound Lab U-2s (same size panels) in an 11'x12' room about 2 1/2 to 3 feet out from the corners sounded quite good as well as in a slightly larger room. Although the frequency response specifications for both the M-2 and M-3 are similar enough, in-room response is different depending upon natural room reinforcement, which in turn depends upon the room size and acoustics. Another thing to consider is the horizontal radiation pattern, 60 degrees on the M-3 vs. 75 degrees on the M-2. The M-2 may prove to be more tonally rich and full bodied than the M-3, to an extent determined by the room. In your room I think you'd hear it. At the same time it's good to have room for the speakers to breathe, and in smaller rooms the smaller speakers may image better."

- did you really mean to say "it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s"? or did you intend to say M-2s?

I realize everything is room dependent, but let's assume I can do whatever I want with the room; I'm still trying to sort out, for a 12x18 room:

- whether the M-3s will deliver enough bass to be tonally balanced?

- whether the M-2s will bring a notable improvement?

- whether the M-2s are too large to be practical in the room?

Any chance you'd be willing to give a "yes" or "no" to those 3 questions? I realize you haven't seen the room and it's just a guess, but given your experience it's probably a much better guess than mine.

My goal is to get the best sound I can get without feeling like I'm in a compression chamber; at some point (which I think I'm approaching) a system can overwhelm a room (visually and/or sonically). On the flip side, this is a once in every 30 years kind of system investment and I don't want to come up a notch short.

Bottom line: if price wasn't an issue and you wanted to live and listen in a room 18x12, which model would you choose? M-3 or M-2?

Thanks!

Hi Hifi

PS, once we get the model nailed down, we can go back to more amplifier discussions :)
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