ARC vs Atma-Sphere and ARC vs VTL Amplifiers

Hi, I appreciate the responses. Ok, here's my target: Sound Lab M-3s or maybe M-2s; the room size is marginal; about 18 long x 12 wide by 10 high. I think I can get each speaker within 1-2 feet of the side walls and about 4-5 feet out from the back wall - which would create an arrangement and allow for a seating position that pretty much conforms to the recommendations on the Cardas web site (which I've found to a useful). I'd prefer the M-2s, but they might be just a bit imposing given the room size; I think the M-3s might feel a little more comfortable in a room this size, but I'm concerned about getting enough low end. So, the low end in amp performance will be particularly important if I go with the M-3s, but overall deluxe sound is important with either the M-3s or the M-2s. I have a hunch that ARC, Atma-Sphere and VTL can all make Sound Labs sound very good. I've heard lots of ARC amps including an ARC amp driving Sound Lab U-1s in a system that was exquisite top to bottom. I'm less much familiar with Atma-Sphere and VTL, but I have a hunch either the MA-1 or the MB-450 would be excellent; so we're just fine tuning I suspect - but hey, that's what this gets to be about. I also have a theory that the Zero Autoformers might have a role to play.

Also, my experience is that ARC's service is somewhere between excellent and perfect (I've been an ARC customer for many years, so it isn't even clear to me I want to switch; I think ARC is a great company that makes great products.); I'd be up for hearing about the service from Atma-Sphere and VTL. My impression is that they must be reasonably good to have been in business a fairly long time themselves so it's primarily a decision based on sonics, but any service input would be good too. (I'm still going to be an ARC customer even if I try the VTL or Atma-Sphere models so this isn't about manufacturer loyalty, it's just a matter of trying to optimize one system.)

Well, I was trying not to get this too specific, but there you have it. Any feedback comparing the amps from these three manufacturers would be appreciated and any feedback from people who have actually heard 2 or 3 of the three on the same speakers would be highly appreciated..

Hi_hifi, I'll try to offer a little advice and encouragement on your intended system, since I own Sound Lab U-1s and am a Sound Lab dealer located in the Chicago area.

First of all, hats off to you on an excellent choice of speakers! (grains of salt all around) In your room either speaker would work. M-2s are easier to drive than M-3s, and it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s. One person I know has Auras (which use similar size panels as M-3s) supplemented by a subwoofer in a room about the size of yours, although a pair of Sound Lab U-2s (same size panels) in an 11'x12' room about 2 1/2 to 3 feet out from the corners sounded quite good as well as in a slightly larger room. Although the frequency response specifications for both the M-2 and M-3 are similar enough, in-room response is different depending upon natural room reinforcement, which in turn depends upon the room size and acoustics. Another thing to consider is the horizontal radiation pattern, 60 degrees on the M-3 vs. 75 degrees on the M-2. The M-2 may prove to be more tonally rich and full bodied than the M-3, to an extent determined by the room. In your room I think you'd hear it. At the same time it's good to have room for the speakers to breathe, and in smaller rooms the smaller speakers may image better.

As for amplifier choices, I have experience with Atma-Sphere MA-1s driving my U-1s. Especially on the current production speakers which enjoy a significant efficiency improvement, the MA-1s should easily be able to drive either the M-2s or M-3s well. Zero autoformers may be worth considering to raise the effective impedance, especially if you go with M-3s, although one of my customers didn't like the Zeros with his M-2s and MA-1s, finding them veiled. I can't speak about how well ARC amps match up with the current production Sound Labs, but only the REF models, especially the REF600s (one of my customers uses them to drive his U-1s), were capable of driving Sound Labs satisfyingly until recently. The VT200 and VT100 now may be capable of driving them. The bigger VTLs seem to be a good match, as Albert Porter reports that his VTL 750s drive his U-1s quite well, so the 450s may be worth checking out and ought to be tons of power for the newer production Sound Labs.

If you're in or plan to visit the Chicago area sometime and would like to come for a listen, including some of the above amplifier choices and perhaps others, let me know and be my guest. Meanwhile, feel free to pick my brain for what little is there. Always glad to help. Best of luck!

Brian

Brian, thanks for the reply; it's always good to get both info and encouragement :).

I've read your paragraph below several times, but I'm not sure if I understand it fully.

- Are you saying that the M-3s will or will not have sufficient bass in a 18x12 room?

"First of all, hats off to you on an excellent choice of speakers! (grains of salt all around) In your room either speaker would work. M-2s are easier to drive than M-3s, and it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s. One person I know has Auras (which use similar size panels as M-3s) supplemented by a subwoofer in a room about the size of yours, although a pair of Sound Lab U-2s (same size panels) in an 11'x12' room about 2 1/2 to 3 feet out from the corners sounded quite good as well as in a slightly larger room. Although the frequency response specifications for both the M-2 and M-3 are similar enough, in-room response is different depending upon natural room reinforcement, which in turn depends upon the room size and acoustics. Another thing to consider is the horizontal radiation pattern, 60 degrees on the M-3 vs. 75 degrees on the M-2. The M-2 may prove to be more tonally rich and full bodied than the M-3, to an extent determined by the room. In your room I think you'd hear it. At the same time it's good to have room for the speakers to breathe, and in smaller rooms the smaller speakers may image better."

- did you really mean to say "it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s"? or did you intend to say M-2s?

I realize everything is room dependent, but let's assume I can do whatever I want with the room; I'm still trying to sort out, for a 12x18 room:

- whether the M-3s will deliver enough bass to be tonally balanced?

- whether the M-2s will bring a notable improvement?

- whether the M-2s are too large to be practical in the room?

Any chance you'd be willing to give a "yes" or "no" to those 3 questions? I realize you haven't seen the room and it's just a guess, but given your experience it's probably a much better guess than mine.

My goal is to get the best sound I can get without feeling like I'm in a compression chamber; at some point (which I think I'm approaching) a system can overwhelm a room (visually and/or sonically). On the flip side, this is a once in every 30 years kind of system investment and I don't want to come up a notch short.

Bottom line: if price wasn't an issue and you wanted to live and listen in a room 18x12, which model would you choose? M-3 or M-2?

Thanks!

Hi Hifi

PS, once we get the model nailed down, we can go back to more amplifier discussions :)

- did you really mean to say "it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s"? or did you intend to say M-2s?

Oops, good catch.

Especially since the ceiling height is 10 ft., M-2s may be the way to go. I think the M-3s might be a bit light-sounding by themselves, although you could augment them with subwoofers. A little more information about your room and listening tastes would be helpful before making a strong recommendation.

The M-3 width fits the room better, but I've seen A-1s in rooms your size, which some would argue are too large. The M-2s might be a good middle ground, but see the above paragraph.

Send me an email with your evening phone number, and I'll be happy to give you a call if you'd like to continue this discussion. I'll do my best to avoid sales pitches.

Brian

If you do go with the A-S MA-1's remember their upgrades, spend a little more now to get their very best.