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ARC vs Atma-Sphere and ARC vs VTL Amplifiers

(Sorry in advance for the long post.)

While I'm particularly interested in the Atma-Sphere MA-1 and the VTL MB-450, I'm interested in learning what sonics users have experienced from the tube amps of all three of these manufacturers. I am most familiar with Audio Research Corp's products so they provide a good reference point for me. I think ARC has made some great amps, so if something is really compettive with their products or better than their products, that would be impressive.

I realize that the models don't all sound the same within a manufacturer's line as designs can change between models and over time. For example, ARC has ebbed and flowed and evolved over the years; their current amps with JFETs seem to elicit somewhat different user comments than their earlier all tube models. And of course the speaker load can make a difference.

Having said all that, I'm very interested in what differences Audiogon users have heard in direct A-B comparisons of ARC vs VTL and ARC vs Atmasphere, and if possible, it would be very helpful to know which amp models and which speakers were heard in the direct A-B, or which amps with what speakers were the basis of the comments if the comments weren't the result of a direct A-B.

While it is valuable to hear a reviewer's qualitative descriptions (more air, more low end extension, etc.) it's also helpful to know how much more or less of these things were heard - just a smigdeon, a noticeable amount, a day and night difference, etc. Generally, I think most Agoners would rather save some $ than just a get a barely discernible upgrade; but if something really takes a system to another level, then sometimes it might be worth spending some $; at that point, it becomes a matter of how many more $, but presumably at least there's a notable difference to be had. (I realize everything can be relative from one user's perspective to another's, but the idea would be to describe both the differences in sound quality and the amount or size of the differences.)

If any Agoners have any comments along these lines regarding ARC vs VTL and ARC vs Atmasphere it would really be most appreciated. It is difficult to find local demos so the ability to get a user's first hand experience "here" (on Audiogon) is the next best thing to "hearing" (the real thing). If nothing else, it helps home-in on the finalists and then maybe it would be worth traveling somehwere to check out finalists first hand.

Thanks very much to all the Agoners who make this such a great forum.
hi_hifi
tuboo
93 posts
 
would like to respond as well.
Have the Atma-Sphere MA-2 on hand, as well as a nice example of the AR VT-100 mk2.
speakers are Genesis 501's.
to start right off, the MA-2's have a far better transparancy and openness compared to the AR VT-100.
the VT-100 is rolled of, has an bit muffled and 'messy' character compared.
due to the output transformers the combination with my 4 ohm speakers is actually a better one .
the low bass and upper bass is better controlled and the VT-100 has a more robust and liquid midrange.
in absolute terms the VT-100 has better control, better bass, better and fuller midrange.
what the MA-2 lets me hear is not a curtain lifted, not a window cleaned but an open door to the music.
it is like you get another 5 Khz on top of the VT-100 recessed top end.
they are that open. but they sound a bit on the lean side..
tough choices to be made ? i see the VT-100 as a good allround amplifier which can be hooked up to many speakers.
it is a friend you will like, but to me the AR does not excell in any area particularly, it does a good and dependable job. i have had this experience with many other AR gear. preamps same thing.
have never heard the big VTL's though..

I have found the solution to all these amp choices...

BAT VK-75 SE .

the OTL will always have transparancy and openness in abundance, but somehere you have choices to make.
if you own 8 ohm or higher impedance speakers, you have a great combination with the OTL's. ( particularly if you crave for openness and transparancy)
if you want the transparancy and the control and the midrange to go along as well, audience the BAT amps !!
don't get carried away with the topology only, it is the match with the speakers that creates the magic..
the match of the MA-2 OTL with my 501's is not a perfect marriage.. you may find other matches that do work.
rushton's avatar
rushton
2,445 posts
 
Atma-Sphere MA-2s and Eidolons: Given Tuboo's experience with MA-2s and Genesis (thanks for sharing this), I thought I should offer some additional comment on my experience with MA-2s and Avalon Eidolons. The Eidolons are also 4 ohm nominal speakers, but they never drop below 3.6 ohms and have a smooth impedance curve (no sharp dips).

For me, the combination of MA-2s and Eidolons is the best combination with the Eidolons I have heard, solid state or tube. The control in the bass is astounding: very agile, very tight, very defined, very transparent. This is in sharp contrast to Tuboo's experience with the Genesis speakers. With the Eidolons, bass definition is excellent. Transients are exceptionally well defined at both leading and trailing edges, and timbre is "spot on."

For example, a group of audiophile friends and I listened recently to the Ray Brown and Laurindo Almeida "Moonlight Serenade" (Jeton) recording on the Eidolon/MA-2 combination. Those who have heard this will know that Ray Brown's bass is closely miked, very detailed and VERY POWERFUL: the reproduction here was outstanding, with several of our group commenting that they'd never heard a double bass reproduced with such detail, definition, agility and authority. This experience is consistent for me with the MA-2s and Eidolons over many recordings with deep powerful bass, e.g.: Mercury Firebird (Classic Records reissue); Mercury "Marcel Dupre at the Organ of Saint-Suplice" (SR 90227); Music of Durufle, Organ of Hedvig Eleonora Church (Proprius); Arnold, Eight English Dances (Lyrita); and many others.

Other tube amplifiers I've heard with the Eidolons simply cannot match the sonic virtues of the MA-2s; but I have not heard ARC Ref300/600 nor the big VTL monoblocks directly with the Eidolons. What I can say is that the Atma-Sphere MA-2s match up very, very well to these speakers and make incredible music.
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samuel
266 posts
 

My experiences with the MA 2 mk 2.3 and Wilson MAXX 2's is virtually identical to Rushton's experience with the MA2/ Eidolons. I do believe that, as with any very resolving component, care must be taken in system and ancillary matching for best performance. I have not heard the best ARC products, and have only heard the BAT and VTL amps in similar systems--but not mine. Both are excellent, but at these prices the only way to buy is through direct experience. Another amp in the same performance category may be the Tenor Hybrid, which I have heard great things about.
springbok10
711 posts
 
As I am a fairly old Audiophile, I have heard many systems, and nothing has even come close to the combination of Atma-Sphere MA 2.2 and Kharma 3.2 speakers. Any audiophile friend who has heard them has done a double-take...........
The soundstaging, detail, dynamics (maybe attributable to the slew rate of 600mv/sec - the fastest extant), transparency, tightness of the bass and the upper end is just incredible. These are amps for life and as an audio nut, I have never said that before.
But, no, I have not A-B'd them with ARC or VTL. (Nor will I !:)
hi_hifi OP
120 posts
 
Hi,

Well, first thanks for all the info. I appreciate it.

Second, I decided to go with the M-2s, but believe it or not, they aren't here yet. Supposedly they will arrive this month.

Despite reading everything I can find anywhere (audiogon, audioasylum, etc, etc.) I haven't been able to figure out what is the best amp for these speakers. I'm pretty sure that "synergy" is important, so what works anywhere else may or may not work in my system and room. Having said that, I've always built my systems largely on studying other people's experiences and then listening to the contenders for "potential." Although a component in a particular system might not show its potential (if the other components or the room aren't right), a truly outstanding piece of equipment will be part of a truly outstanding sounding system, somewhere. Said differently, if I can't find a system somehwere that sounds great with a particular component (even when the other components and the room might not resemble mine), then I begin to wonder if maybe that component isn't really all that great after all.

Long story short, I'd like to find some system(s) somewhere in the U.S. where an Atma, VTL, or Wolcott amp are included and the system "blows you away" with great sound. Obviously, it would be nice if I could hear such a system with M-2s (or almost any Soundlab speakers), but other stats or Maggies, or any great speaker would be fine. And ideally, I'd like to hear a system where someone could say "listen to how incredible this is", and then switch between two of the brands (Atma vs VTL or vs. Wolcott, and ARC - which is my reference). Kind of hard to believe that it's so hard to find such a system, but I'm still looking. If anyone knows of a system that is truly spectacular that could be auditioned with one of these 3 ARC competitors (or better yet with 2 or 3 of the 3), please send me an email. I can travel a bit and for the right demo I'm inclined to do a road trip. Surely, some dealer or someone somewhere must have an inspirational Atma, VTL, or Wolcott demo. In the meantime, thanks for any additional descriptions of how these various units sound in systems you've heard. One way or another, I'll figure it out - that's part of the fun. Supposedly we're here to enjoy the journey, but I'm starting to get a bit eager for the destination :)
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